Discussion:
Barium Perchlorate usage
(too old to reply)
Firebrand
2010-05-17 21:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Will this work to make a green flash comp? What would be the mass/mass
ratio w/ 3uL Al?
Any other noteworthy applications?
Firebrand
2010-05-18 03:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Firebrand
Will this work to make a green flash comp? What would be the mass/mass
ratio w/ 3uL Al?
Any other noteworthy applications?
I have recently acquired some of this material. Does anybody have a
clue if this material has any worthwhile applications
to pyrotechnics?
msswis
2010-05-18 18:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Barium perchlorate is quite hygroscopic. It was at one time marketed
as a laboratory dessicant under the name
"Dessichlora." That's how my bottle is labelled, at any rate. Maybe it
still is sold for this purpose.

It is not used in fireworks because its hygroscopicity makes it
unsuitable.
Post by Firebrand
Post by Firebrand
Will this work to make a green flash comp? What would be the mass/mass
ratio w/ 3uL Al?
Any other noteworthy applications?
I have recently acquired some of this material. Does anybody have a
clue if this material has any worthwhile applications
to pyrotechnics?
Anon Emous
2010-05-19 00:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by msswis
Barium perchlorate is quite hygroscopic. It was at one time marketed
as a laboratory dessicant under the name
"Dessichlora." That's how my bottle is labelled, at any rate. Maybe it
still is sold for this purpose.
It is not used in fireworks because its hygroscopicity makes it
unsuitable.
---------
Well.... granted anhydrous Ba(ClO2)2 dobe hygroscopic therefore,
the -4H2O form is used in fwks. My DB sez there are 6
compounds using it in Tenny Davis and 1 in Pyrotechnica.

The best known/used desiccant perchlorate is magnesium, which has
caused some interesting explosions.


djh
----
Science is a collection
of successful recipes.

Paul Valéry
French poet-essayist
(1871-1945)
mikes2653
2010-05-19 20:14:34 UTC
Permalink
I think those compositions in Davis are 'theoretical' kind of like the
ones containing thallium compounds abstracted from patents or found in
the old 'trade secret' formularies.

There is very little evidence to suggest such compositions were
actually used in industry.
Post by Anon Emous
Post by msswis
Barium perchlorate is quite hygroscopic. It was at one time marketed
as a laboratory dessicant under the name
"Dessichlora." That's how my bottle is labelled, at any rate. Maybe it
still is sold for this purpose.
It is not used in fireworks because its hygroscopicity makes it
unsuitable.
---------
Well.... granted  anhydrous Ba(ClO2)2 dobe hygroscopic therefore,
the -4H2O form is used in fwks. My DB sez there are 6
compounds using it in Tenny Davis and 1 in Pyrotechnica.
The best known/used desiccant perchlorate is magnesium, which has
caused some interesting explosions.
djh
----
Science is a collection
of successful recipes.
Paul Valéry
French poet-essayist
(1871-1945)
Anon Emous
2010-05-19 20:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by mikes2653
I think those compositions in Davis are 'theoretical' kind of like the
ones containing thallium compounds abstracted from patents or found in
the old 'trade secret' formularies.
There is very little evidence to suggest such compositions were
actually used in industry.
---------
The one in Pyrotechnica is up to-date.

It is not used me thinks dobe because Ba chlorate works better.
And probable a lot of other chemicals.
mikes2653
2010-05-19 22:54:15 UTC
Permalink
I said nothing about any composition not being up to date.

There is very little evidence that any of those in question was or is
actually used in industry. It is easy to formulate, publish, or patent
a composition. The first two may be done by anyone. The last requires
an investment of money that experience suggests is quite unlikely ever
to be recovered. Bringing a composition into practical use requires
that it actually have some technical or economic benefit. Barium
perchlorate offers neither.
Post by Anon Emous
Post by mikes2653
I think those compositions in Davis are 'theoretical' kind of like the
ones containing thallium compounds abstracted from patents or found in
the old 'trade secret' formularies.
There is very little evidence to suggest such compositions were
actually used in industry.
---------
The one in Pyrotechnica is up to-date.
It is not used me thinks dobe because Ba chlorate works better.
And probable a lot of other chemicals.
Anon Emous
2010-05-20 02:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by mikes2653
I said nothing about any composition not being up to date.
There is very little evidence that any of those in question was or is
actually used in industry. It is easy to formulate, publish, or patent
a composition. The first two may be done by anyone. The last requires
an investment of money that experience suggests is quite unlikely ever
to be recovered. Bringing a composition into practical use requires
that it actually have some technical or economic benefit. Barium
perchlorate offers neither.
-----
Yeabut. Amateur pyro's are a lot like the do-it-yourself people.
Professionals buy the tools they need ... DIY's ... the tools they
want.

If your are only making one or two, or are just curious money is no
object.

Granted for professional use if your are a going to burn it - once...
it has to be inexpensive.


djh
----
Whose theory of living forever is....
As long as I have a tool that I bought but have
yet to use... I will live forever. My life will end
when I pick up a tool and say "This is the
only tool I own but have never used."
mikes2653
2010-05-20 21:42:31 UTC
Permalink
I suppose it depends on what your thinking about amateurism is.

Mine has always been that because for the amateur, time is NOT money,
and only the satisfaction of the highest possible workmanship should
matter to him, he should be able to transcend the limits of the merely
commercial, and produce a superior result.

Unfortunately many amateurs - not just in pyrotechny - end up spending
more time and money than necessary, only to get an inferior result.
This is what gives the word "amateur" a bad name, with its
implications of ignorance and bungling.

I don't know of any pyrotechnic composition using barium perchlorate
that gives a superior result to those using other ingredients, which
are cheaper and more available to boot. It's just going to lead to the
kind of bad amateur outcome that I mention above.
Post by Anon Emous
Yeabut. Amateur pyro's are a lot like the do-it-yourself people.
Professionals buy the tools they need ... DIY's ... the tools they
want.
If your are only making one or two, or are just curious money is no
object.
Granted for professional use if your are a going to burn it - once...
it has to be inexpensive.
djh
----
Whose theory of living forever is....
As long as I have a  tool that I bought but have
yet to use... I will live forever. My life will end
when I pick up a tool and say "This is the
only tool I own but have never used."
Bob
2010-05-21 02:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by mikes2653
I suppose it depends on what your thinking about amateurism is.
Mine has always been that because for the amateur, time is NOT money,
and only the satisfaction of the highest possible workmanship should
matter to him, he should be able to transcend the limits of the merely
commercial, and produce a superior result.
Unfortunately many amateurs - not just in pyrotechny - end up spending
more time and money than necessary, only to get an inferior result.
This is what gives the word "amateur" a bad name, with its
implications of ignorance and bungling.
Then perhaps you should call us experimenters.
Anon Emous
2010-05-21 02:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Then perhaps you should call us experimenters.
When Worlds of Creation and Destruction Collide
By MALCOLM W. BROWNE
New York Times 5v99

His diary entry for one day in 1898 read: "Fired cannon, pop and
firecrackers all
day. in evening had five sky rockets, three Roman candles, one large
pinwheel
and a Japanese match which I made."

The words were not those of a vengeful delinquent planning a
schoolyard
massacre; they were written by a 15-year-old Robert Hutchings Goddard,
whose
later inventions - liquid rocket fuel, multistage vehicles and rocket
gyrostabilizers,
among them - opened the way to space travel.

One wonders what would have befallen space science if Goddard and a
host of
youthful experimenters had been denied access to the very things
legislators
and others these days are seeking to ban. The fact is, many young
people have
been drawn to careers in science and engineering partly by spectacular
chemical
reactions, especially explosions.

Recent school killings have prompted calls for banning almost every
potential
weapon from flint knives to nuclear bombs. (Somehow the automobile is
never
included.) But to ban all dangerous substances would be a tall order.

There has never been any lack of explosive materials, and explosives
have
proliferated at a tremendous rate over the years. A dictionary of
explosives in
1900 contained 1,091 entries, whereas the current tally of
"satisfactory"
explosives (according to an expert at Los Alamos National Laboratory)
is about
20,000.

There are those who would favor outlawing all 20,000 of them if it
meant keeping
children safe. But it's worth remembering that at least some
explosives are vital
to modern civilization; explosives are needed for mining, building
roads, digging
foundations, welding pipelines and railroad tracks, actuating
automobile air bags,
sending rockets to Mars and simulating conditions deep within the
atmospheres
of giant planets, among countless other thmigs.

During my own childhood in the 1930's and 1940's, dangerous chemicals
including explosives and poisons were easy to come by, and yet I
cannot
remember a single incident comparable to the disaster in Littleton,
Colo., and
other recent killings.

Not that kids didn't experiment and play dangerous tricks.

Firearms and explosives (including fireworks) invite mischief, but in
the past it
was usually of a fairly harmless kind. Farm children of a more relaxed
generation
than the present one used to annoy dairymen by detonating sticks of
dynamite
under empty 20-gallon milk cans, sending the cans sailing into the
sky. College
students delighted in flushing lighted firecrackers down dormitory
toilets, causing
fountains to erupt from toilets on lower floors. Mild but startling
explosions
caused by ammonia-moistened iodine crystals scattered around lab
benches
enlivened many a chemistry class.

Recreational explosions are not necessarily dangerous. Since 1912,
the
Conestoga Company of Bethlehem, Pa., has been making and selling
acetylene
cannons that delight children with satisfying bangs free of any risk
of injury.
But fireworks containing explosive or propellant charges are not
harmless; every
year children lose fingers or eyes by holding lighted firecrackers or
rockets.
Moreover, fireworks can be put to criminal purposes. Most of the pipe
bombs that
have figured in recent terror incidents have been filled with aluminum
powder
and oxidizers extracted from ordinary firecrackers.

Naturally, people are eager to prevent massacres. The response has
been an
effort to prevent the trafficking in explosives and guns, and to
somehow
reprogram children with violent proclivities.

Snuffing out the fire of genius for fear of a few psychopaths.
Fireworks are banned (or limited to relatively innocuous pyrotechnic
products like
sparklers) in 16 states, and each year sees new legislation to
prevent
substances like ammonium nitrate fertilizer from falling into
felonious hands. The
sale of old-fashioned black powder, the propellant needed for firing
antique
weapons, has been sharply curtailed because it has been used in
homemade
bombs.

As the trend continues, government agencies have also constrained the
sale of
chemicals so tightly that it is difficult or impossible for most young
students to
buy them.

Until 1957, when it moved to New Jersey to provide chemicals and
apparatus
exclusively to manufacturers, the Ace Scientific Supply Company on
11h Street,
Manhattan, used to count many neighborhood high school students among
its
customers. A thicket of regulations eventually blocked such sales, but
the com-
pany's president, Robert L. Lowenstein, remembered his student
customers
fondly.

"Many of those young customers made important contributions to science
and
are now research directors," Mr. Lowenstein said. "I wish something
could be
done to make chemicals and apparatus more available to students, but I
can't
see anyway."

Similar regrets are often expressed by older teachers.

Dr. David Weitzman, a professor of biochemistry at the University of
Bath,
England, wrote in the New Scientist nearly two decades ago that
although he
had accepted the chairmanship of his university's safety panel, the
reduction of
laboratory risks had had its down side.

"In the laboratories, we forbid this, don't allow that, and prevent
the other ... and
we're all safer and less at risk of harm and hazard. Most
commendable," he
wrote. "But have we, at the same time, removed some of the fun and
excitement
of laboratory life, the thrill of experimenting with the unknown?"

Dr. Weitzman described some of the risky experiments and procedures
once
common in student laboratories, including a very hazardous method for
cleaning
flasks by filling them with an explosive mixture of nitric acid and
alcohol.

"These encounters conveyed a sense of intimacy with one's chemical
materials,"
he wrote. "One saw reagents and reactions at their most angry and
violent and,
having done so, one learnt to tame them and discipline them to do
one's own
bidding."

He concluded that "perhaps just a little bit of danger might bring a
lot more fun
and lead to more insight and understanding."

Banning several thousand chemicals as well as timers, pipes, epoxy
glue and
other items that can be combined as bombs would be one approach to
denying
bombs to potential criminals. Another would be the reprogramming of
violence-prone people to eliminate aggressive impulses; it might be
done with
psychotherapy, chemical castration or brain surgery.

By selective breeding or gene manipulation, traits associated with
aggressive
behavior and the creation of sociopaths might be reduced throughout
the world,
spawning the most well-behaved human race the world has ever seen. A
similar
result has been achieved in Siberia, where fur breeders have invented
a com-
pletely docile breed of silver fox -one that licks its keepers' faces
while being
prepared for slaughter.

But must we really squelch all the things that can contribute to anti-
social
behavior to protect ourselves from a handful of sociopaths?

Could an aggression-free race produce a Jefferson or Beethoven or
Einstein? As
we race to eliminate aggressors and their weapons, should we not take
care to
avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water?

-------------------------
djh

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare,
terror, murder, bloodshed -- and they produced
Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Resaissance. In
Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred yeas of
democracy and peace, and what did they produce?
The cuckoo clock!

(George) Orson Wells, 1915-1985
Speech added to Graham Greene's script for
The Third Man, 1949
Anon Emous
2010-05-21 02:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Then perhaps you should call us experimenters.
The Chemist And Druggist
January 26, 1895

The Apprentice.

He will now begin to show a tendency to slippery hands and big feet.
The amount of
things that a budding man will pass through his hands to their
detriment, and the
number of harmless trade implements of a bashful retiring disposition
that he will
drag from their obscure retreats and fall over, is positively
astounding There arises,
too, an over-mastering thirst for information. Some men hare this
worse than others.
The less afflicted are content if they can attend cat-poisonings and
laboratory
explosions once a week; but the more promising ones merely whet their
appetites on
such trivialities. They are ravenous for facts, and pestered seniors
and busy principals
rack their brains for the email fishes to minister to their devouring
appetites. They
are regular whales at information. What they do with it all no one
knows, least of all
they themselves, but they will have it at any cost.
mikes2653
2010-05-21 17:52:09 UTC
Permalink
That may be.

For me, firework-making is an art; its aim is to make something
beautiful.

Experimenting does not have the production of beauty as its aim, but
rather the satisfaction of curiosity.

This brings to mind the anecdote about the little boy who, having
farted, was amused by the noise. He tried again and did it again. When
he tried it a third time he shat his pants. This sent him crying to
mama, who reminded him that he had long been out of diapers, and asked
how such a thing could happen to a boy of his age, He answered - "I
was just experimenting."
Post by Bob
Then perhaps you should call us experimenters.
Anon Emous
2010-05-21 23:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by mikes2653
This brings to mind the anecdote about the little boy who, having
farted, was amused by the noise. He tried again and did it again. When
he tried it a third time he shat his pants. This sent him crying to
mama, who reminded him that he had long been out of diapers, and asked
how such a thing could happen to a boy of his age, He answered - "I
was just experimenting."
DJH drives this further off topic - crashes and burns.

One of my fellow GI's (1964-5) after eating a box of chocolate cookies
and drinking a quart of chocolate milk.... tried to burp and fart as
the same
time ..... !
Bas
2010-05-22 08:39:20 UTC
Permalink
This one is hilarious!!

Bas from Holland
Post by mikes2653
This brings to mind the anecdote about the little boy who, having
farted, was amused by the noise. He tried again and did it again. When
he tried it a third time he shat his pants. This sent him crying to
mama, who reminded him that he had long been out of diapers, and asked
how such a thing could happen to a boy of his age, He answered - "I
was just experimenting."
DJH drives this further off topic - crashes and burns.

One of my fellow GI's (1964-5) after eating a box of chocolate cookies
and drinking a quart of chocolate milk.... tried to burp and fart as
the same
time ..... !
Bob
2010-05-23 02:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mikes2653
That may be.
For me, firework-making is an art; its aim is to make something
beautiful.
Experimenting does not have the production of beauty as its aim, but
rather the satisfaction of curiosity.
I'm curious as to whether, or how well, a thing of beauty can be made
THIS way.
g***@gmail.com
2017-10-21 06:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Barium Perchlorate seems to work well with a small amount of Potassium Perchlorate usually 75% of the Barium material and 25% of the other by weight which tends to mitigate the extreme hydroscopiness of it.
Anon Emous
2010-05-19 21:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Firebrand
Will this work to make a green flash comp? What would be the mass/mass
ratio w/ 3uL Al?
Any other noteworthy applications?
-----------
GELLED PYROTECHNIC FLARE COMPOSITION CONTAINING WATER-SOLUBLE CARBOXY
VINYL ...
Fay et al.
US Patent 3 461 006


My ever useful copy of WF Linke, Solubilities of Inorganic and Metal-
Organic Compounds.
D Van Nostrand, 1958. Sez —

Ba(ClO4)2 Methyl alcohol - 68.46 gms per 100 gms.
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