Discussion:
4-lb BP rocket tooling dimensions
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Andy H. <andys_junk_address at yahoo dot com>
2006-01-12 03:09:03 UTC
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Would anyone happen to know the dimensions for 4lb end-burning rocket
tooling? If possible, CADD drawings would be excellent as well!

Thanks.


--
Andy H.
"Clean Up or Die..."
John Reilly
2006-01-16 15:34:38 UTC
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LadyKate
2006-01-16 18:01:01 UTC
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Post by John Reilly
Andy, I suspect the reason you haven't had more responses to your
question on end burnin rockets, especially "4 lb." by which I assume
you mean 1-1/4" bore, is that using a black powder based fuel and a
clay choke, they are too inefficient to loft a large "heading" or
garniture of stars and burst. Were that not true, the traditional
skyrocket configuration with the tapered hollow grain would not be
necessary. Certainly, the first "rockets" invented by the Chinese or
the Arabs were end burning as that would have been the way the bamboo
tubes were first charged. The little Estes and Century motors that Orv
Carlisle invented and patented were end burning except for some some
boosters which had a small core. Looking at the surface area of fuel
burning per time increment of a given engine diameter, a hollow core
burns much more fuel/ time increment than an end burner. A cored rocket
can be as much as half empty and therefore weighs less than a solidly
charged motor of the same bore. The entire grain of a cored rocket
burns out before the rocket reaches 1/3 rd. of its' fnal apogee, the
tail streaming behind being the solid part of the grain, or the the
"delay" or "tracking" charge in a model rocket motor. As anyone who
launces small black powder rockets knows, they can't lift much. A
girondola driver (really an end burning rocket) can only lift perhaps
25% to 50% over its own weight. In fact, if you've watched "coronas"
taking off, many of the heavier ones stay spinning on their pivots
burning fuel and lightening the load enough to lift off! Look at how
little fuel and how lightweight an Estes BP motor is! A cored black
powder rocket can lift over twice its own weight to altitude.
All this being said, a good starting point for a 1-1/4" bore end
burning rocket would be choked down to about .30", or 25% of bore.
This is considerably less than a "standard" driver or fountain tooling
choke as made by Wolter or Greg of this newsgroup. You could use the
larger choke diameter but you won't get efficient lift. If I were to
orde one, I would want the nipple to be 3/8" tall before chamfer,
(1-1/4" O.D. of course), and a taper length of about 1/2" on the nipple
to the .30" diameter choke spindle. Spindle length would be about an
inch to an inch and a quarter above chamfered nipple, tapering from
.32" to about .28" at tip. A drilled drift with a .34" hole diameter
and depth of about 1-1/4" would be fine. The convex drift end should
have about a 30 degree bevel as well for efficiency. A shorter 1-1/4"
diameter solid drift would complete the tooling unless you want a
passfire drift as well with a stud to form a perforated clay bulkhead.
Were I having one made, I'd order the base and spindle assembly in
stainless steel and the drifts in hard aluminm alloy.
These numbers are somewhat arbitrary and more to MY liking than
anything else. Keep in mind that your fuel mixture and milling is
equally important to success. Make motors than are just short of
bursting and then back off the of the KNO3 percentage a tad for assured
success.
Hope this is of use. Be safe!
John
Great post, John.

Steve LaDuke makes some nice 1" end burners (or essentially they are
end burners) using whistle. His videos and specifications are available
for purchase and I think some moderated groups have summaries of them
in their download areas. They are high-performance.

I watched his video and his explanation of the tooling was pretty good.
He mentions in his video that you can use hot BP as an end burner but I
would imagine it would suffer from the frailties you describe in your
post. I've certainly duplicated that result when I made 1/2" and 5/8"
end burners. Still, they sound interesting.

I guess the request for CAD drawings kind of scared me in the original
post - I'm not that sophisticated with the tooling. For larger
rockets, which I don't make that often, I use hardwood dowels for
drifts and make aluminum spindles from rod rotated against a belt
sander using a drill to get a bit of taper - then polished with fine
cloth and greased with a light coat of vaseline. 'Tis the po' boy
approach but it seems to work.
John Reilly
2006-01-16 20:06:01 UTC
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As you said, Steve LaDuke is much more experienced in matters of end
burning rockets and whistling rockets especially. The KCLO4 and Sodium
Salyclate fuel produces much more thrust than high quality black powder
and somewhat more than Potassium or Sodium Benzoate/KCLO4 comps. These
may approach or exceed the Ammonium Perchlorate and Thiokol or other
PBAN/Aluminum mixes in NASA and military solid fuel missiles and if not
for the ocillatory nature of the burn could fuel those motors.
Personally, I believe that the vibrational burn (causing the whistle
sound in nozzleless tubes) is what keeps these motors very close to
the CATO threshold and requires them to be pressed to such a solid
grain compared to smoother burning BP or cast solvent bound rubber
fuels. Of course even sturdy paper tubes and pressed clay nozzles are
no containment for such fuels when using cored grains. Steve's 7/8"
bore "Long Winded Screamer" uses a hybrid grain of salycylate comp.
beneath a benzoate comp. top grain. If choked, neither the paper tubes
or the pressed clay nozzle or bulkhead would contain the extreme
pressure generated. But that is getting beyond the realm of
"fireworks" and into high powered rocketry.

John
m***@hotmail.com
2006-01-16 20:19:41 UTC
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John, Boy are you right! The Steve Laduke LWS is really cool!

Andy H.: If you do make any whistle rockets ( and I highly recommend
you do!) Be REAL careful pressing them. A blast sheild is essential and
be real carefull of bottoming out your drift onto the spindle. Press
only. Never never never ram whistle mix.

I have had those thing go almost out of sight. Seems like they fly for
5 minutes (even though they really don't!) Very cool rocket!!!

Regina
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2006-01-16 20:36:21 UTC
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Post by m***@hotmail.com
John, Boy are you right! The Steve Laduke LWS is really cool!
...
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Regina
Yeah! Steve was at the last FPAG festival, and threw up some new strobing
LWSs just to entertain us!

LLoyd
Richard J Kinch
2006-01-17 06:59:54 UTC
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Post by LadyKate
I guess the request for CAD drawings kind of scared me in the original
post - I'm not that sophisticated with the tooling.
If someone could describe these tools, then I could create and post some
drawings along the lines of what I did for the Stinger missle style:

http://www.truetex.com/stinger.htm

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