Sugar and Sodium Hydroxide Reaction?

[Ike]

I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.

Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).

The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.

Can someone explain this reaction?

I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Thank you!

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Sodium Peroxide and pretty much any carbohydrate make the basis for the
"flaming cereal" effect. I've done it many times.

Sodium hydroxide heats up when mixed with water. I'm guessing, but based
upon what you indicated below:

1) The microwave heat was sufficient to allow the lye to begin scavenging
water from the sugar.
2) as it did, the lye self-heated, adding to the microwave's engergy
3) since the mass was a pretty good insulator, that process of heating "ran
away" -- as the mixture got hotter, the reaction became more vigorous.

At some point, the sugar takes fire. Certainly, it did not happen at 200F.
But perhaps the outer edge of the mass (or the dead center) was at 200
degrees when the interior at about an inch deep got to something over 400F.

In order to measure the temperature effectively, a fast-response device like
a solid-state thermocouple should be used, rather than a massy and slow
thermometer.

Place the probe about 1" deep into the mass, since that's about as deep as
the microwave energy likely will penetrate.

LLoyd

Post by Ike
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Post by Ike
Thank you!

[donald j haarmann]

"Ike" <***@cimmerians.org>

[snip]

Post by Ike
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Post by Ike
Thank you!

---------
Neither is in:-

Mr. Wizards' Experiments in Chemistry.
1970.

However .... MW Ovens were not common in 1970! And sodium peroxide and lye is not a chemical
you would give to a young one!

I have seen him do the sodium peroxide - cotton - drop of water on some late-night TV show.

This demo can be found in:-

Kenneth M. Swezey
Chemistry Magic
McGraw-Hill Book Company 1956

I suspect though I do not have the time to check - they are KMS's Chemistry articles
from Popular Science or the late 1930's - 1940's. Of which I have most... somewhere!

A quick check of Leonard A Ford's; Chemical Magic 2nd ed. Dover Publications 1993. (I have
the original 1959 ed here somewhere!!) Finds neither demo.

When I find my Na peroxide (if I have any... I know I got's Ba P) .... and buy some confectionary sugar
I will give this a try.

I would note that on exposure to air (even quicker at high temperature) alkali metal peroxides absorbed
carbon dioxide and become carbonates. Thus their use in small diving subs to remove CO2. [Extra credit -
a quick look at the alkali metal stoichiometry will show the best by weight.]

Sodium hydroxide is used to glaze pretzels! The baking process converts it into carbonate... however,
there have been failures! And they were not pretty!

[donald j haarmann]

Post by donald j haarmann
[snip]

Post by Ike
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the

When I find my Na peroxide (if I have any... I know I got's Ba P) .... and buy some confectionary sugar
I will give this a try.

------------
Luck is with us! 'round dusk one 55 gallon drum looks like every other drum. However, have
found my sodium peroxide. I ground some in my porcelain mortar to an impalpable powder
... put a bit on a touch of table sugar ..... a drop of water .... and ............ YES it instantly inflames!
See — sometime those warning labels are accurate!!! Na peroxide is a very active oxidizing agent.
"Keep away from organic material." Not up to elemental fluorine..... but certainly an exciting chemical.
--
donlad j haarmann
------------------------------
Eventually we eliminated all flaws,
using the method of proof by
exhaustion — anyone, including us,
who tired to analyse the model
would get exhausted before they
understood it well enough to find
the flaws.

Frank Wilczek
Nature 428, 261 (2004)
On Savas Dimopoulos and his
work on supersymmetry.

[Mike Swisher]

An old demonstration in science classes used to be to fill a 250 cc beaker about
1/3 full of table sugar and to add conc. sulphuric acid. Heat would be evolved
and a snake-like spongy mass of carbon would "grow" from the beaker.

The explanation is that sulphuric acid has a strong affinity for water. Sucrose
has the formula C12H22O11, and the hydrogen and oxygen being in the perfect
proportions are abstracted by the sulphuric acid as water from the sugar,
leaving carbon behind. Caramelization works the same way - as the sugar is
heated, the hydrogen and oxygen are driven off as water, and if the process is
continued long enough, pure carbon will be left. Wood, which is mainly a mixture
of cellulose and lignins (which are carbohydrates) is heated to make charcoal by
a similar process of destructive distillation.

The addition of lye to water generates considerable heat. This is one of the
ways it functions to unclog drains when poured down the plumbing - along with
its caustic action on whatever it touches. I expect that when the sugar melts or
is dissolved in a bit of water it begins to react with the lye, producing heat
as more water is abstracted from the sugar in much the same way as it is by the
sulphuric acid in the above noted demonstration. Hence the flames, etc.

Another alkaline dissolution that yields considerable heat is the slaking of
lime. This used to be a common spectacle at construction sites in the days when
mortar was made from scratch, but I suspect very few people today have ever seen
it. The old firework books often contained recipes for "automatic fires," based
on unslaked lime mixed with combustible materials, which would catch fire when a
little water was added to them, because of the heat evolved by the slaking of
the lime. These reactions were known long before the ordinary oxidizer/fuel ones
used in fireworks. Partington describes in his "History of Greek Fire and
Gunpowder" such a recipe found in a work attributed to Julius Africanus (born ca
160 AD), but dating probably from about 550 AD.

Post by Ike
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&amp;rnum=1&amp;prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1
Thank you!

[Andy Holcomb >]

Are you investigating those 2 exploding-jawbreaker stories?

Post by Ike
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1
Thank you!

[PyroLeo]

Would that show happen to be "Myth busters"?

I recall from the Mr. Wizard television show in the 70's that he demonstrated
how foods could be made to burn when mixed with sodium peroxide. He then
talked about how that experiment was somewhat similar to how foods are tested
for their calorie content.

Leo
-------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Date: 12 May 2004 11:24:27 -0700
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GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:24:27 +0000 (UTC)
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.i

x.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsuga
r%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Thank you!

[Ike]

You guys are great, and I thank you all for the pointers! This is all
excellent information, and I bet that Lloyd is right in that the NaOH
and sugar was able to produce some heat on its own, and the microwave
(and also the traditional oven) pushed it to the combustion point. I
would not suggest trying this in your home microwave...the reaction is
quite hot and violent and makes a big mess, and as a result we had to
get a new MW so we can reheat our lunches.

The original Mr. Science food experiments sound great. I gotta get
some sodium peroxide!

As far as what the story is that we are working on, and what the show
is that I work for...you guys are pretty sharp, but I'm sorry to say
that I can neither confirm nor deny. ;)

I hope you will all allow me to post future questions to you when I
get stuck...I never know what they're going to ask me to blow up when
I come to work each day!

THANKS!

***

Post by Andy Holcomb >
Are you investigating those 2 exploding-jawbreaker stories?
Would that show happen to be "Myth busters"?
I recall from the Mr. Wizard television show in the 70's that he demonstrated
how foods could be made to burn when mixed with sodium peroxide. He then
talked about how that experiment was somewhat similar to how foods are tested
for their calorie content.
Leo
-------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Date: 12 May 2004 11:24:27 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:24:27 +0000 (UTC)
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.i

x.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsuga
r%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Thank you!

[donald j haarmann]

Post by Ike
You guys are great, and I thank you all for the pointers! This is all
excellent information, and I bet that Lloyd is right in that the NaOH
and sugar was able to produce some heat on its own, and the microwave
(and also the traditional oven) pushed it to the combustion point. I
would not suggest trying this in your home microwave...the reaction is
quite hot and violent and makes a big mess, and as a result we had to
get a new MW so we can reheat our lunches.

[snip]


--------------
I don't think it is that simple! If you heat (cane) sugar by its self .... it caramelizes.
A standard magic trick is to add a few cigarette ashes ...it will then burn when heated.
One would assume that cigarette ash is not the only substance that when add to
sugar will allow it to burn.

[PyroLeo]

Hmmm... Is that what's known as a non-denial denial? Well all I can say is
that Myth Busters is a great show. I especially liked the show with the wood
cannon for example, but would like to see more pro-fireworks shows.

Of course what all of us here would like to see laid to rest, is the myth of
the common M-80 being equal to a quarter stick of dynamite. That's a total
load of crap, but the question shows up here constantly.

Worse yet, every year around the 4th the CPSP gets on tv and presents lies and
fear-mongering as news. They use M-80's and even larger salutes which haven't
been legally sold in the US since the 60's, equate them to the pathetic
sparklers and bottle rockets available at the corner stand, and paint all
fireworks as being potentially lethal. The media is a more-than-willing
accomplice. I guess people just can't get enough of chickens and watermelons
being blown up on tv.

Leo
----------------------

Post by Ike
You guys are great, and I thank you all for the pointers! This is all
excellent information, and I bet that Lloyd is right in that the NaOH
and sugar was able to produce some heat on its own, and the microwave
(and also the traditional oven) pushed it to the combustion point. I
would not suggest trying this in your home microwave...the reaction is
quite hot and violent and makes a big mess, and as a result we had to
get a new MW so we can reheat our lunches.
The original Mr. Science food experiments sound great. I gotta get
some sodium peroxide!
As far as what the story is that we are working on, and what the show
is that I work for...you guys are pretty sharp, but I'm sorry to say
that I can neither confirm nor deny. ;)
I hope you will all allow me to post future questions to you when I
get stuck...I never know what they're going to ask me to blow up when
I come to work each day!
THANKS!
***

Post by Andy Holcomb >
Are you investigating those 2 exploding-jawbreaker stories?
Would that show happen to be "Myth busters"?
I recall from the Mr. Wizard television show in the 70's that he demonstrated
how foods could be made to burn when mixed with sodium peroxide. He then
talked about how that experiment was somewhat similar to how foods are

tested

Post by Andy Holcomb >
for their calorie content.
Leo
-------------------------------------------

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GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:24:27 +0000 (UTC)
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.i

x.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsuga

r%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1

Post by Ike

Post by Andy Holcomb >

Thank you!

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Ike
I am the science advisor for a popular show on cable TV that debunks
urban stories. We're shooting the new season right now.
Yesterday at work, in experiments for a story on a dry, hard, sugary
food that actually blew up in 2 people's faces, we mixed sodium
hydroxide and sugar (1:1) and put it into the microwave oven. It
burst into spectacular flame at only around 200 degrees F (as far as
we could measure it).
The sugar by itself can go well over 320 degrees F without
self-igniting, and the sodium hydroxide doesn't seem to do much by
itself, even up to 320 degrees F. But for some reason when they are
mixed we are getting this combustion reaction.
Can someone explain this reaction?
I can not find any reference to it in my books or on the web except a
typo that Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) did this experiment on his show in
the 1950's. He supposedly mixed lye and sugar and when he added a few
drops of water to it the pile burst into flame. But other references
say that it was not lye but actually sodium peroxide. Here's the
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=4fhqf4%246l%40reader2.ix.netcom.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522mr.%2Bwizard%2522%2Blye%2Bsugar%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D4fhqf4%25246l%2540reader2.ix.netcom.com%26rnum%3D1
Thank you!