mini rockets

I feel your pain!

My current project is development of 'bottle rocket' scale motors in an
expedient manner. As a matter of fact I just finished rolling 60 5 mm
ID, 40 mm long tubes while I was watching TV:

Loading Image...

If there is a commercial source for tubes less than about 3/8" ID I'd
sure like to know about it! Makes you really respect the Chinese
factory workers, even with special tooling and horrible wages it is
pretty amazing they can make rockets for a few bucks a gross.

Post by FirmAbs6pk
well, maby not totally pyrotechnics... but thought you guys might be
able to help a little. I got some of those Micro Maxx rockets... fun
to launch in the yard and kids love em. well, I dont really much
wanna spend the money to buy those $1.25 miniature rockets (smaller
than a common bottle rocket). so I started making my own... nozzle of
durhams putty and I simply ram some meal powder of mine in it, then I
put a delay of sugar/KNO3 (a little heavy on the sugar side so it
burns slower), then I glue a No. 11 percussion cap (open side facing
toward top of rocket) on top as an ejection charge.
question is this... do any of you know where to buy those small paper
tubes, like the ones they use on common 50 mg firecrackers (3/16" ID)
.22 casings work well too, only problem is the brass heats up quite a
bit and ends up melting itself to the plastic rocket tubing. any
other suggestions than rolling my own tubes, cause on this micro
scale, its getting to be a pain in the buttox.
~Firm

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-11 21:23:48 UTC

sure does make you appreciate them chinese. I made a set of micro
drifts rams and case formers out of some dowels and a thin welding
rod. at first I tried making some nozzleless BP rockets, but they
tend to burn really fast through the BP, propelling it upwards a total
of maby 5 feet then the delay burns as it falls.

if you put a report in those little buggers, get some no.11 percussion
caps for muzzleloaders... actually, get the "magnum" caps, because
they contain a bit more powder than the standard no.11 it sure beats
ramming a little clay in there with a peice of visco, then flash, then
another swig of some watter putty... just drop it in with a dot of
super glue and maby some flash inside it for added report. the no.11
magnum caps though sound like a .22 going off all by themselves, loud
enough for what I want.

~Firm

Post by Alan Yates
I feel your pain!
My current project is development of 'bottle rocket' scale motors in an
expedient manner. As a matter of fact I just finished rolling 60 5 mm
http://nexus.cable.nu/junk/mini-tubes.jpg
If there is a commercial source for tubes less than about 3/8" ID I'd
sure like to know about it! Makes you really respect the Chinese
factory workers, even with special tooling and horrible wages it is
pretty amazing they can make rockets for a few bucks a gross.

Alan Yates

2004-02-12 06:33:28 UTC

I am at the disadvantage of never having seen a bottle rocket in real
life, much less taken one apart to study.

I've tried crimping the bottom closed to form a primitive nozzle. It
actually worked quite well when used with a short core. I also tried a
choked nozzle with a slightly longer core and it became a salute on a stick:

http://www.vk2zay.net/device.php?id=151

Since then (yesterday actually) I tried nozzleless construction, I had
pretty much the same experence as you, they flew a few metres at best.
Although they were quite small, about 1" long with a core about 1/2"
deep which was likely insufficient.

Then, last night, I tried one with a clay nozzle in end-burning
configuration. It performed a little better than the nozzleless ones,
but not much. I'll experiment further with different core lengths until
I get one that performs OK with this propellant (6:1:1 blackpowder
milled for about 20 minutes to achieve homogeneity only).

For a report I think I'll stick to a few tens of milligrams of flash
placed on top of the grain, followed by some wadding and hot-melt to
close the top. I don't have a shooters licence so getting caps in AU
would be hard, besides it seems a more dangerous and expensive salute
than flash that costs less than 4 cents a gram.

Post by FirmAbs6pk
sure does make you appreciate them chinese. I made a set of micro
drifts rams and case formers out of some dowels and a thin welding
rod. at first I tried making some nozzleless BP rockets, but they
tend to burn really fast through the BP, propelling it upwards a total
of maby 5 feet then the delay burns as it falls.
if you put a report in those little buggers, get some no.11 percussion
caps for muzzleloaders... actually, get the "magnum" caps, because
they contain a bit more powder than the standard no.11 it sure beats
ramming a little clay in there with a peice of visco, then flash, then
another swig of some watter putty... just drop it in with a dot of
super glue and maby some flash inside it for added report. the no.11
magnum caps though sound like a .22 going off all by themselves, loud
enough for what I want.
~Firm

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

W Klofkorn

2004-02-17 03:06:55 UTC

Hate to let the cat out of the bag, but this problem is currently the
subject of some research and development aimed at producing an innovative
design for small rocket construction. While some think bigger is necessarily
better, others have been working on the opposite line of thought: smaller is
more manageable from many standpoints. I know of a couple of teams working
on small fireworks and one working on small rockets in particular. With luck
we may see some published material shortly. Main problem seems to be time
commitments of the persons involved rather than technology. When one gets
wife, kids, etc, R&D time & writing time get scarce. Still, efforts are
underway. Watch the various pyro publications for more in the (we hope)
relatively near future.

Alan Yates

2004-02-17 03:37:02 UTC

Sounds great, I can't wait to read their research.

If they want any help... Well I am only an amateur but I've got a
pretty good grasp of physics and chemistry.

Post by W Klofkorn
Hate to let the cat out of the bag, but this problem is currently the
subject of some research and development aimed at producing an innovative
design for small rocket construction. While some think bigger is necessarily
better, others have been working on the opposite line of thought: smaller is
more manageable from many standpoints. I know of a couple of teams working
on small fireworks and one working on small rockets in particular. With luck
we may see some published material shortly. Main problem seems to be time
commitments of the persons involved rather than technology. When one gets
wife, kids, etc, R&D time & writing time get scarce. Still, efforts are
underway. Watch the various pyro publications for more in the (we hope)
relatively near future.

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-11 23:04:29 UTC

Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time, though. I
guess plastic might cause a problem.

Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the inside of a
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in the tube.
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside the tube.

What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive? Too big? Hell
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)

How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them? Ready made
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...

Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your own...

John Reilly

2004-02-12 06:17:20 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time, though. I
guess plastic might cause a problem.
Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the inside of a
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in the tube.
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside the tube.
What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive? Too big? Hell
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them? Ready made
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your own...

I don't know a source anymore for ready made 1/4" or 5/16" rocket
tubes but for an easy method of making bottle rockets try this:
(worked for me for 40 years). Cut a 4" length of hardwood doweling
and rub with a candle to make a paste resistant case former. Buy a
roll of brown kraft 3" gummed paper mailing tape (unreinforced, water
activated glue)and tear off a few 4" lengths. Wet sponge the glue and
roll tightly on the former to make a tube 3" long. With a sharp knife
bladerolled back and forth across the center of the tube and former,
cut into two 1-1/2" tubes. Slide one tube end 3/16" beyond the end of
the former and using the point of an awl or nail, bend the (still
damp) overhanging paper down against the flat end of the waxed case
former at 4 points- 6 o'clock, then 12 o'clock, then 3 o'clock and
then 9 o'clock. Holding the case former and partly crimped tube
tightly against a table, tap the case former with a mallet "setting"
the four point star crimp in place flat and neat like a shotshell
crimp. Do this with the other half of the tube and allow to dry for a
bit. Fuel is 5-1-1, or 5-2-1 Potassium Nitrate powder, airfloat
charcoal and sufur. Chrysanthemum Six works well and gives a golden
spark tail. Fill the open end of the rocket case lightly with the fuel
and compact it with 3 or 4 light blows of a mallet on a 2" piece of
the same doweling inserted in the tube as a "drift". The tube should
be about 1/2 full of consolidated fuel. Refill the tube again and
repeat ramming it 3 or 4 light blows. Ram a bit of Bentonite clay to
seal the case and with a 3/32" diameter awl or compass point pierce
the center of the crimped end about 1/2" to 5/8" into the fuel. Insert
a cracker fuse or piece of thin visco, tape on a bottle rocket size
stick and it should get up 100 feet. Leave out the clay, add a bit of
flash, a pinch of sawdust and a drop of white glue and you have
reporting bottle rocket. You can also make these 1/4" diameter and
use paper and paste instead of kraft paper tape but this is quicker
and easier. With practice, you should be able to roll a lot of tubes
in one evening. Have fun and be safe!! JR

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice however,
they are different." Jan van de Schepschuet

Alan Yates

2004-02-12 06:47:18 UTC

Thanks for that John, it sounds like I am on the right track, I just
need to dial-in the core length.

Post by John Reilly
I don't know a source anymore for ready made 1/4" or 5/16" rocket
(worked for me for 40 years). Cut a 4" length of hardwood doweling
and rub with a candle to make a paste resistant case former. Buy a
roll of brown kraft 3" gummed paper mailing tape (unreinforced, water
activated glue)and tear off a few 4" lengths. Wet sponge the glue and
roll tightly on the former to make a tube 3" long. With a sharp knife
bladerolled back and forth across the center of the tube and former,
cut into two 1-1/2" tubes. Slide one tube end 3/16" beyond the end of
the former and using the point of an awl or nail, bend the (still
damp) overhanging paper down against the flat end of the waxed case
former at 4 points- 6 o'clock, then 12 o'clock, then 3 o'clock and
then 9 o'clock. Holding the case former and partly crimped tube
tightly against a table, tap the case former with a mallet "setting"
the four point star crimp in place flat and neat like a shotshell
crimp. Do this with the other half of the tube and allow to dry for a
bit. Fuel is 5-1-1, or 5-2-1 Potassium Nitrate powder, airfloat
charcoal and sufur. Chrysanthemum Six works well and gives a golden
spark tail. Fill the open end of the rocket case lightly with the fuel
and compact it with 3 or 4 light blows of a mallet on a 2" piece of
the same doweling inserted in the tube as a "drift". The tube should
be about 1/2 full of consolidated fuel. Refill the tube again and
repeat ramming it 3 or 4 light blows. Ram a bit of Bentonite clay to
seal the case and with a 3/32" diameter awl or compass point pierce
the center of the crimped end about 1/2" to 5/8" into the fuel. Insert
a cracker fuse or piece of thin visco, tape on a bottle rocket size
stick and it should get up 100 feet. Leave out the clay, add a bit of
flash, a pinch of sawdust and a drop of white glue and you have
reporting bottle rocket. You can also make these 1/4" diameter and
use paper and paste instead of kraft paper tape but this is quicker
and easier. With practice, you should be able to roll a lot of tubes
in one evening. Have fun and be safe!! JR

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-12 13:05:24 UTC

yup, pyrodex pellets are a bit on the large side... but those will be
for my saturn V rocket I'm building right now... I might give the
pistol pellets a try, but I dont know if they sell the .32 caliber
pellets yet, and I think those are even too big.

I'm gonna give the case crimp method a try and see how that goes. I
just spent the night makin a bunch of water putty nozzles and I plan
on using the end-burner configuration by ramming some meal-D into it.
my meal powder alone didnt give it enough oomph as I wanted, they
still got about 25-30 feet high though.

~Firm

I don't know a source anymore for ready made 1/4" or 5/16" rocket
(worked for me for 40 years). Cut a 4" length of hardwood doweling
and rub with a candle to make a paste resistant case former. Buy a
roll of brown kraft 3" gummed paper mailing tape (unreinforced, water
activated glue)and tear off a few 4" lengths. Wet sponge the glue and
roll tightly on the former to make a tube 3" long. With a sharp knife
bladerolled back and forth across the center of the tube and former,
cut into two 1-1/2" tubes. Slide one tube end 3/16" beyond the end of
the former and using the point of an awl or nail, bend the (still
damp) overhanging paper down against the flat end of the waxed case
former at 4 points- 6 o'clock, then 12 o'clock, then 3 o'clock and
then 9 o'clock. Holding the case former and partly crimped tube
tightly against a table, tap the case former with a mallet "setting"
the four point star crimp in place flat and neat like a shotshell
crimp. Do this with the other half of the tube and allow to dry for a
bit. Fuel is 5-1-1, or 5-2-1 Potassium Nitrate powder, airfloat
charcoal and sufur. Chrysanthemum Six works well and gives a golden
spark tail. Fill the open end of the rocket case lightly with the fuel
and compact it with 3 or 4 light blows of a mallet on a 2" piece of
the same doweling inserted in the tube as a "drift". The tube should
be about 1/2 full of consolidated fuel. Refill the tube again and
repeat ramming it 3 or 4 light blows. Ram a bit of Bentonite clay to
seal the case and with a 3/32" diameter awl or compass point pierce
the center of the crimped end about 1/2" to 5/8" into the fuel. Insert
a cracker fuse or piece of thin visco, tape on a bottle rocket size
stick and it should get up 100 feet. Leave out the clay, add a bit of
flash, a pinch of sawdust and a drop of white glue and you have
reporting bottle rocket. You can also make these 1/4" diameter and
use paper and paste instead of kraft paper tape but this is quicker
and easier. With practice, you should be able to roll a lot of tubes
in one evening. Have fun and be safe!! JR
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice however,
they are different." Jan van de Schepschuet

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-12 22:33:36 UTC

Have you tried reusing the Micro Max motors? This subject interested me so
I went out and bought an eight pack at $4.99.

Sorry for the comment about making a naked grain. That's what I thought
these things were. I didn't know they were complete little motors.

I noted the case was almost ceramic/plastic or something. After a static
test, I cleaned it out with water and a 5/32" drill bit. I used a pin to
clear the nozzle which only seemed to widen by a hair.

I then pressed some bp into it using the blunt end of the same drill bit,
capped with hot glue, and shot it off again. Obviously looks like my
pressing was not near as strong as Quest's (I did it by hand) and my bp mix
is inferior (not to mention it has gum arabic in it) - so the thrust sounded
a bit lighter.

But, all things in consideration, I think you can reuse these motors a
number of times without a problem. You may eventually need to drill them
all the way through and replace the nozzle. But the walls of the case seem
very heat tolerant.

On another note, it seems to me that you could use some heat resistant
plastic tubing from a hobby shop for single shot use.

Post by FirmAbs6pk
yup, pyrodex pellets are a bit on the large side... but those will be
for my saturn V rocket I'm building right now... I might give the
pistol pellets a try, but I dont know if they sell the .32 caliber
pellets yet, and I think those are even too big.
I'm gonna give the case crimp method a try and see how that goes. I
just spent the night makin a bunch of water putty nozzles and I plan
on using the end-burner configuration by ramming some meal-D into it.
my meal powder alone didnt give it enough oomph as I wanted, they
still got about 25-30 feet high though.
~Firm

Hell

Post by Piccolo Pete
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them? Ready made
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your own...

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-13 13:50:02 UTC

I wish I could find those motors... seems as though they have moved on
from those motors and now they use a cardboard tube casing, but they
beefed up the propellant a bit (which I understand to be just black
powder) I think they just added a tiny-itsy-bitsy core to them... and
now they sell for $6.99 for a 6 pack... none of the hobby stores
around here carry the old motors which have been discontinued.

I just tried making the case crimping core method and I am a bit
dissatisfied with the core... it seems a wee bit like its gonna burn
right through, but I'll give it a try anyways.... speaking of wee, I
saw wee-man from the movie Jackass over at the hobby store today
(makes me wonder what he is up to now!!!)

~firm

Post by Piccolo Pete
Have you tried reusing the Micro Max motors? This subject interested me so
I went out and bought an eight pack at $4.99.
Sorry for the comment about making a naked grain. That's what I thought
these things were. I didn't know they were complete little motors.
I noted the case was almost ceramic/plastic or something. After a static
test, I cleaned it out with water and a 5/32" drill bit. I used a pin to
clear the nozzle which only seemed to widen by a hair.
I then pressed some bp into it using the blunt end of the same drill bit,
capped with hot glue, and shot it off again. Obviously looks like my
pressing was not near as strong as Quest's (I did it by hand) and my bp mix
is inferior (not to mention it has gum arabic in it) - so the thrust sounded
a bit lighter.
But, all things in consideration, I think you can reuse these motors a
number of times without a problem. You may eventually need to drill them
all the way through and replace the nozzle. But the walls of the case seem
very heat tolerant.
On another note, it seems to me that you could use some heat resistant
plastic tubing from a hobby shop for single shot use.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time,

though. I

Post by Piccolo Pete
guess plastic might cause a problem.
Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the inside

of a

Post by Piccolo Pete
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive? Too big?

Hell

Post by Piccolo Pete
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them? Ready

made

Post by Piccolo Pete
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your

own...

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-13 21:08:11 UTC

Sorry, I meant Nozzle instead of core... I was also a wee bit tired
when I posted that.

~Firm

Post by FirmAbs6pk
I just tried making the case crimping core method and I am a bit
dissatisfied with the core... it seems a wee bit like its gonna burn
right through, but I'll give it a try anyways....

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-13 23:38:22 UTC

I went back to the hobby shop. They still have eight packs left. I asked
if they could ship and they said no :-(

I'd ship them to you for a Valentine's Day present - but I'm trying really
hard to stay out of jail :-)

You could try some carbon fiber or fiber glass tubing... Also available at
hobby shops.

By the way, I use "Quick Steel" epoxy for my nozzles. I roll up a little
ball, flatten it out a bit on a piece of glass, jam the tube into it, press
it down internally with the drift, twist the drift out, then twist the tube
off the glass and smooth out the epoxy. Rock solid in about an hour or
less. Then, after pressing in the comp and topping it off with 'whatever',
I use a drill bit to make a nozzle by hand (no power drill). Of course,
these are a little bit bigger than the Micro Maxx motors. I don't see why
it wouldn't work, though.

Lotta work for bottle rocket type stuff...

Post by FirmAbs6pk
I wish I could find those motors... seems as though they have moved on
from those motors and now they use a cardboard tube casing, but they
beefed up the propellant a bit (which I understand to be just black
powder) I think they just added a tiny-itsy-bitsy core to them... and
now they sell for $6.99 for a 6 pack... none of the hobby stores
around here carry the old motors which have been discontinued.
I just tried making the case crimping core method and I am a bit
dissatisfied with the core... it seems a wee bit like its gonna burn
right through, but I'll give it a try anyways.... speaking of wee, I
saw wee-man from the movie Jackass over at the hobby store today
(makes me wonder what he is up to now!!!)
~firm

Post by Piccolo Pete
Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time,

though. I

Post by Piccolo Pete
guess plastic might cause a problem.
Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the inside

of a

Post by Piccolo Pete
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive? Too big?

Hell

Post by Piccolo Pete
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them?

Ready

Post by Piccolo Pete
made

Post by Piccolo Pete
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your

own...

Don T

2004-02-14 00:24:41 UTC

Drilling a core, even by hand, is "not good". I hope you are drilling just
until you touch powder. Lots of folks have tried drilling a core and the
result is, more often than not, a salute on a stick. What happens is one of
a couple of things, either there is more core exposure of powder than can be
ignited and the gas pass through the orifice or the grain itself cracks with
the same result.

As far as shipping to your friend goes, FEDEX or UPS is worth a try. They
ship things like that regularly. But they won't get there by Valentine Day.
HeH.
--
Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe

Post by Piccolo Pete
I went back to the hobby shop. They still have eight packs left. I asked
if they could ship and they said no :-(
I'd ship them to you for a Valentine's Day present - but I'm trying really
hard to stay out of jail :-)
You could try some carbon fiber or fiber glass tubing... Also available at
hobby shops.
By the way, I use "Quick Steel" epoxy for my nozzles. I roll up a little
ball, flatten it out a bit on a piece of glass, jam the tube into it, press
it down internally with the drift, twist the drift out, then twist the tube
off the glass and smooth out the epoxy. Rock solid in about an hour or
less. Then, after pressing in the comp and topping it off with 'whatever',
I use a drill bit to make a nozzle by hand (no power drill). Of course,
these are a little bit bigger than the Micro Maxx motors. I don't see why
it wouldn't work, though.
Lotta work for bottle rocket type stuff...

Post by Piccolo Pete
Have you tried reusing the Micro Max motors? This subject interested

Post by Piccolo Pete
so

Post by Piccolo Pete
I went out and bought an eight pack at $4.99.
Sorry for the comment about making a naked grain. That's what I thought
these things were. I didn't know they were complete little motors.
I noted the case was almost ceramic/plastic or something. After a

static

Post by Piccolo Pete
test, I cleaned it out with water and a 5/32" drill bit. I used a pin

Post by Piccolo Pete
clear the nozzle which only seemed to widen by a hair.
I then pressed some bp into it using the blunt end of the same drill

bit,

Post by Piccolo Pete
capped with hot glue, and shot it off again. Obviously looks like my
pressing was not near as strong as Quest's (I did it by hand) and my

Post by Piccolo Pete
mix

Post by Piccolo Pete
is inferior (not to mention it has gum arabic in it) - so the thrust

sounded

Post by Piccolo Pete
a bit lighter.
But, all things in consideration, I think you can reuse these motors a
number of times without a problem. You may eventually need to drill

them

Post by Piccolo Pete
all the way through and replace the nozzle. But the walls of the case

seem

Post by Piccolo Pete
very heat tolerant.
On another note, it seems to me that you could use some heat resistant
plastic tubing from a hobby shop for single shot use.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time,

though. I

Post by Piccolo Pete
guess plastic might cause a problem.
Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the

inside

Post by Piccolo Pete
of a

Post by Piccolo Pete
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside the

tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive? Too

big?

Post by Piccolo Pete
Hell

Post by Piccolo Pete
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them?

Ready

Post by Piccolo Pete
made

Post by Piccolo Pete
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling your

own...

water

Post by John Reilly
activated glue)and tear off a few 4" lengths. Wet sponge the glue

and

Post by John Reilly
roll tightly on the former to make a tube 3" long. With a sharp

knife

Post by John Reilly
bladerolled back and forth across the center of the tube and former,
cut into two 1-1/2" tubes. Slide one tube end 3/16" beyond the

end

Post by John Reilly
the former and using the point of an awl or nail, bend the (still
damp) overhanging paper down against the flat end of the waxed case
former at 4 points- 6 o'clock, then 12 o'clock, then 3 o'clock and
then 9 o'clock. Holding the case former and partly crimped tube
tightly against a table, tap the case former with a mallet "setting"
the four point star crimp in place flat and neat like a shotshell
crimp. Do this with the other half of the tube and allow to dry

for

Post by Piccolo Pete
a

Post by John Reilly
bit. Fuel is 5-1-1, or 5-2-1 Potassium Nitrate powder, airfloat
charcoal and sufur. Chrysanthemum Six works well and gives a golden
spark tail. Fill the open end of the rocket case lightly with the

fuel

Post by John Reilly
and compact it with 3 or 4 light blows of a mallet on a 2" piece of
the same doweling inserted in the tube as a "drift". The tube should
be about 1/2 full of consolidated fuel. Refill the tube again and
repeat ramming it 3 or 4 light blows. Ram a bit of Bentonite

clay

Post by Piccolo Pete
to

Post by John Reilly
seal the case and with a 3/32" diameter awl or compass point pierce
the center of the crimped end about 1/2" to 5/8" into the fuel.

Insert

Post by John Reilly
a cracker fuse or piece of thin visco, tape on a bottle rocket size
stick and it should get up 100 feet. Leave out the clay, add a

bit

Post by John Reilly
flash, a pinch of sawdust and a drop of white glue and you have
reporting bottle rocket. You can also make these 1/4" diameter and
use paper and paste instead of kraft paper tape but this is quicker
and easier. With practice, you should be able to roll a lot of

tubes

Post by John Reilly
in one evening. Have fun and be safe!! JR
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice however,
they are different." Jan van de Schepschuet

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-14 01:46:43 UTC

Post by Don T
Drilling a core, even by hand, is "not good". I hope you are drilling just
until you touch powder. Lots of folks have tried drilling a core and the
result is, more often than not, a salute on a stick. What happens is one of
a couple of things, either there is more core exposure of powder than can be
ignited and the gas pass through the orifice or the grain itself cracks with
the same result.

It is dry rammed bp comp. I've never had a "salute on a stick" doing this.
I'm not recommending a drilled core - only a drilled nozzle.

In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical Ti
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on alt.binaries.crafts.

Post by Don T
As far as shipping to your friend goes, FEDEX or UPS is worth a try. They
ship things like that regularly. But they won't get there by Valentine Day.
HeH.

If the hobby shop isn't going to bother with it - neither am I...

Post by Don T
--
Don Thompson
"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe

Post by Piccolo Pete
hobby shops.
By the way, I use "Quick Steel" epoxy for my nozzles. I roll up a little
ball, flatten it out a bit on a piece of glass, jam the tube into it,

press

Post by Piccolo Pete
it down internally with the drift, twist the drift out, then twist the

tube

Post by Piccolo Pete
off the glass and smooth out the epoxy. Rock solid in about an hour or
less. Then, after pressing in the comp and topping it off with

'whatever',

Post by Piccolo Pete
I use a drill bit to make a nozzle by hand (no power drill). Of course,
these are a little bit bigger than the Micro Maxx motors. I don't see why
it wouldn't work, though.
Lotta work for bottle rocket type stuff...

Post by Piccolo Pete
Have you tried reusing the Micro Max motors? This subject interested

Post by Piccolo Pete
so

Post by Piccolo Pete
I went out and bought an eight pack at $4.99.
Sorry for the comment about making a naked grain. That's what I

thought

Post by Piccolo Pete
these things were. I didn't know they were complete little motors.
I noted the case was almost ceramic/plastic or something. After a

static

Post by Piccolo Pete
test, I cleaned it out with water and a 5/32" drill bit. I used a pin

Post by Piccolo Pete
clear the nozzle which only seemed to widen by a hair.
I then pressed some bp into it using the blunt end of the same drill

bit,

Post by Piccolo Pete
capped with hot glue, and shot it off again. Obviously looks like my
pressing was not near as strong as Quest's (I did it by hand) and my

Post by Piccolo Pete
mix

Post by Piccolo Pete
is inferior (not to mention it has gum arabic in it) - so the thrust

sounded

Post by Piccolo Pete
a bit lighter.
But, all things in consideration, I think you can reuse these motors a
number of times without a problem. You may eventually need to drill

them

Post by Piccolo Pete
all the way through and replace the nozzle. But the walls of the case

seem

Post by Piccolo Pete
very heat tolerant.
On another note, it seems to me that you could use some heat resistant
plastic tubing from a hobby shop for single shot use.

Post by FirmAbs6pk
yup, pyrodex pellets are a bit on the large side... but those will

Post by FirmAbs6pk
for my saturn V rocket I'm building right now... I might give the
pistol pellets a try, but I dont know if they sell the .32 caliber
pellets yet, and I think those are even too big.
I'm gonna give the case crimp method a try and see how that goes.

Post by Don T

Post by FirmAbs6pk
just spent the night makin a bunch of water putty nozzles and I plan
on using the end-burner configuration by ramming some meal-D into

it.

Post by FirmAbs6pk
my meal powder alone didnt give it enough oomph as I wanted, they
still got about 25-30 feet high though.
~Firm

Post by Piccolo Pete
Can you use straws? I haven't seen paper straws in a long time,

though. I

Post by Piccolo Pete
guess plastic might cause a problem.
Or maybe you could add a bit of dextrin to the meal, coat the

inside

Post by Piccolo Pete
of a

Post by Piccolo Pete
small hobby tube with graphite, dampen the meal and ram it in

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Then you could, hopefully, slide the grain out after it dries.
Unfortunately, it would take a few days or more to dry inside

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
tube.

Post by Piccolo Pete
What about the pyrodex pellet rockets? Also too expensive?

Too

Post by Don T

Post by Piccolo Pete
big?

Post by Piccolo Pete
Hell

Post by Piccolo Pete
with Micro Maxx - make your own mini rocket company ;-)
How about center-fire 25 caliber with tape wrapped around them?

Ready

Post by Piccolo Pete
made

Post by Piccolo Pete
nozzle! Too big? Not a good idea to use metal anyway...
Hmmm... Nope, can't think of anything else short of rolling

your

Post by Piccolo Pete
own...

Post by John Reilly
I don't know a source anymore for ready made 1/4" or 5/16" rocket
(worked for me for 40 years). Cut a 4" length of hardwood

doweling

Post by John Reilly
and rub with a candle to make a paste resistant case former.

Buy

Post by Don T
a

Post by John Reilly
roll of brown kraft 3" gummed paper mailing tape (unreinforced,

water

Post by John Reilly
activated glue)and tear off a few 4" lengths. Wet sponge the glue

and

Post by John Reilly
roll tightly on the former to make a tube 3" long. With a sharp

knife

Post by John Reilly
bladerolled back and forth across the center of the tube and

former,

Post by John Reilly
cut into two 1-1/2" tubes. Slide one tube end 3/16" beyond the

end

Post by John Reilly
the former and using the point of an awl or nail, bend the (still
damp) overhanging paper down against the flat end of the waxed

case

Post by John Reilly
former at 4 points- 6 o'clock, then 12 o'clock, then 3 o'clock and
then 9 o'clock. Holding the case former and partly crimped tube
tightly against a table, tap the case former with a mallet

"setting"

Post by John Reilly
the four point star crimp in place flat and neat like a shotshell
crimp. Do this with the other half of the tube and allow to dry

for

Post by Piccolo Pete
a

Post by John Reilly
bit. Fuel is 5-1-1, or 5-2-1 Potassium Nitrate powder, airfloat
charcoal and sufur. Chrysanthemum Six works well and gives a

golden

Post by John Reilly
spark tail. Fill the open end of the rocket case lightly with the

fuel

Post by John Reilly
and compact it with 3 or 4 light blows of a mallet on a 2" piece

Post by John Reilly
the same doweling inserted in the tube as a "drift". The tube

should

Post by John Reilly
be about 1/2 full of consolidated fuel. Refill the tube again and
repeat ramming it 3 or 4 light blows. Ram a bit of Bentonite

clay

Post by Piccolo Pete
to

Post by John Reilly
seal the case and with a 3/32" diameter awl or compass point

pierce

Post by John Reilly
the center of the crimped end about 1/2" to 5/8" into the fuel.

Insert

Post by John Reilly
a cracker fuse or piece of thin visco, tape on a bottle rocket

size

Post by John Reilly
stick and it should get up 100 feet. Leave out the clay, add a

bit

Post by John Reilly
flash, a pinch of sawdust and a drop of white glue and you have
reporting bottle rocket. You can also make these 1/4" diameter

and

Post by John Reilly
use paper and paste instead of kraft paper tape but this is

quicker

Post by John Reilly
and easier. With practice, you should be able to roll a lot of

tubes

Post by John Reilly
in one evening. Have fun and be safe!! JR
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice

however,

Post by John Reilly
they are different." Jan van de Schepschuet

Mark Herbert

2004-02-14 01:46:21 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical Ti
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on alt.binaries.crafts.

Say Pete, I wonder if you would consider posting your pictures and video
to alt.binaries.crafts.pictures? My news server doesn't carry
alt.binaries.crafts, which probably means it's not a well propagated
group and is likely relatively defunct. I think you'd have a bigger
audience using abcp.

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-14 03:35:00 UTC

Done...

I'll use said group from now until someone suggests a better group.

Thanks for the info.

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical Ti
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on alt.binaries.crafts.

Say Pete, I wonder if you would consider posting your pictures and video
to alt.binaries.crafts.pictures? My news server doesn't carry
alt.binaries.crafts, which probably means it's not a well propagate
group and is likely relatively defunct. I think you'd have a bigger
audience using abcp.

Mark Herbert

2004-02-14 04:47:26 UTC

Cool. I watched your videos and I compliment you on your work. It
wasn't that long ago you were taking major grief for playing with
unknown powders. I have been fully enjoying your pyro evolution and
it's especially fun that you're providing pictorial documentation.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Done...
I'll use said group from now until someone suggests a better group.
Thanks for the info.

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical

Post by Piccolo Pete
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on alt.binaries.crafts.

Say Pete, I wonder if you would consider posting your pictures and video
to alt.binaries.crafts.pictures? My news server doesn't carry
alt.binaries.crafts, which probably means it's not a well propagate
group and is likely relatively defunct. I think you'd have a bigger
audience using abcp.

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-14 17:33:53 UTC

Gee thanks, Mark. It is nice to get a compliment like that - especially
after wasting half a day trying (unsuccessfully) to make a smoke cannister.

Post by Mark Herbert
Cool. I watched your videos and I compliment you on your work. It
wasn't that long ago you were taking major grief for playing with
unknown powders. I have been fully enjoying your pyro evolution and
it's especially fun that you're providing pictorial documentation.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Done...
I'll use said group from now until someone suggests a better group.
Thanks for the info.

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical

Post by Piccolo Pete
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on

alt.binaries.crafts.

Post by Mark Herbert
Say Pete, I wonder if you would consider posting your pictures and video
to alt.binaries.crafts.pictures? My news server doesn't carry
alt.binaries.crafts, which probably means it's not a well propagate
group and is likely relatively defunct. I think you'd have a bigger
audience using abcp.

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-14 08:27:15 UTC

I made a micro maxx sized motor today and it performed quite well. I
rolled the 3/16" ID tube, and made a watter putty nozzle (sorry I like
the watter putty better cause I usually let them dry overnight
anyways, and the stuff costs $2 a box and lasts me... well, lets say
my box is still about half full). after drilling the nozzle, I have a
small peice of music wire glued into a flat peice of wood. then I ram
on about 1/8 tsp Meal-D. then I remove the motor from the core former
and ram it about half full with Meal-D. I fill almost the rest of it
with some sugar/kno3 (any better ideas for a simple and cheap delay
compo anyone?), then cap it off with a no. 11 percussion cap for an
ejection charge. worked great! made it up about 80 feet, but then the
rocket fell into some ice-plant and I wasnt able to recover it.

~Firm

Post by Piccolo Pete
Done...
I'll use said group from now until someone suggests a better group.
Thanks for the info.

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical

Post by Piccolo Pete
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on alt.binaries.crafts.

Say Pete, I wonder if you would consider posting your pictures and video
to alt.binaries.crafts.pictures? My news server doesn't carry
alt.binaries.crafts, which probably means it's not a well propagate
group and is likely relatively defunct. I think you'd have a bigger
audience using abcp.

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-14 17:36:59 UTC

Cool... What's an "ice-plant".

Post by FirmAbs6pk
I made a micro maxx sized motor today and it performed quite well. I
rolled the 3/16" ID tube, and made a watter putty nozzle (sorry I like
the watter putty better cause I usually let them dry overnight
anyways, and the stuff costs $2 a box and lasts me... well, lets say
my box is still about half full). after drilling the nozzle, I have a
small peice of music wire glued into a flat peice of wood. then I ram
on about 1/8 tsp Meal-D. then I remove the motor from the core former
and ram it about half full with Meal-D. I fill almost the rest of it
with some sugar/kno3 (any better ideas for a simple and cheap delay
compo anyone?), then cap it off with a no. 11 percussion cap for an
ejection charge. worked great! made it up about 80 feet, but then the
rocket fell into some ice-plant and I wasnt able to recover it.
~Firm

Post by Piccolo Pete
Done...
I'll use said group from now until someone suggests a better group.
Thanks for the info.

Post by Piccolo Pete
In fact, I made a nice little rocket tonight with bp and 10% spherical

Post by Piccolo Pete
rammed in a coat hangar tube. Video available on

alt.binaries.crafts.

FirmAbs6pk

2004-02-16 01:56:35 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Cool... What's an "ice-plant".

its a succulent ivy like plant. they use it to keep the hillside on
the backside of my house from being washed out in rains. it grows
pretty thick and the rocket managed to bury itself deep in the plants
and its near impossible to find it.

~Firm

Alan Yates

2004-02-15 08:08:12 UTC

I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

John Reilly

2004-02-15 18:32:16 UTC

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

I've always preferred to ram or press rocket motors on a spindle
rather than solid filling and drilling out a nozzle and or core. For
those beginning to make skyrockets here's an easy tool to make 1-oz.
(3/8" bore rockets). This info came from M.P. Vander Horck's
"PYRONEWS" from 1967 I believe, and was based upon info supplied by
Bill Withrow to Van. The principle is the same for large display
rockets as well. Buy a 3/8" hardwood dowel, a 16d iron nail(sinker
type) and a roll of 3" gummed kraft paper tape (water activated).
Fuel is hand sifted 5/ 1.5/ 1 Potassium Nitrate/ Airfloat
charcoal/Sulfur dust. Clay is plain old Bentonite. Cut off a 5"
length of the dowel for use as a case former and rub it with wax to
prevent glue sticking to it. Cut a 4" length, a 2" length and a 7/8"
length from the same dowel. Carefully and as accurately as possible
drill a 5/32" hole in dead center of one end of the 4" length of
dowel. Drill it abou 2-1/2" deep. Take the 7/8" length of dowel and
drill a 1/8" hole clear through the long way dead center as well.
Slide the 16 penny nail through the 7/8" bored "nipple" and epoxy glue
it with the nail head flush against one end of the nipple. when dry,
cut the nail w/ hacksaw so that 2" projects beyond the nipple. Smooth
the cut with a file or sharpening stone. Take a scrap piece of 2x4
lumber (say 3-1/2" x 3-1/2") as a spindle base and drill a 3/8" hole
5/8" deep in dead center. Epoxy the spindle nipple into this base and
dry. Tear off a 10" length of the gummed paper tape and roll a motor
case (3" long x 3/8" I.D.)on the 5" case former, moistening the glue
and keeping the ends nice and flush. Roll the cases (still on the
former) back and forth between your hand and the table, using heavy
pressure to tighten them. Slip a dried case over the spindle assembly
and add a bit less than 1/4 teaspoon of clay. Slip the hollow 4"
rammer (drift) in the tube and over the spindle and with a one pound
mallet give it 6 or 7 moderate blows, consolidating the clay nozzle.
Withdraw the drift and add 1/4 tsp. fuel. Ram again and repeat until
the fuel reaches the top of the nail (spindle). Switch to the 2"
solid drift and ram until you have 3/8" to 1/2" solid fuel above the
spindle. Ram in another increment of clay as a bulkhead and carefully
twis the finished motor off the spindle assembly. Tape on a light
1/8" stick about 15" long, fuse w/ black match or visco and it should
reach 250' depending on fuel ratio. For a starburst, drill a vent
through the clay bulkhead using a 3/32" drill bit twisted with your
fingers, or else eliminate the clay bulkead entirely. Roll a small
Head out of light paper and add stars and burst. Two tips: after each
increment of clay or fuel is rammed in place, give the spindle a half
turn by holding the motor case and turning the base with the other
hand. This helps keep the spindle centered and keeps it freed up for
later removal. Keep the spindle waxed (rub w/ candle after every 5
motors or so to prevent rust. Wood may be varnished w/ poyurethane.
Also, make another shorter spindle (5/8" projecting beyond nipple) to
use for gerbes and wheel pushers. The three inch gummed paper tape is
perfect for learning case rolling; make spollettes, 1/2" bore
helicopter casings etc. Above all, read, learn and BE SAFE!! The old
timers know what an exciting, challenging and rewarding hobby this is.
Please don't add to the myriad problems we already have by doing
something stupid. JR

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-17 04:42:46 UTC

"John Reilly" <***@swbell.net> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...

I don't mean to be rude, JR, but this does not seem to be "easy" as you say.

Perhaps it is "better" than cutting off some coat hangar tube, pressing some
epoxy, ramming some meal, hot glueing the top, drilling out the nozzle, and
attaching a stick. But it isn't quick and simple satisfaction.

Perhaps for a stage 2 or stage 3 beginner... :-) Once a person gets their
fill of shooting low powered rockets then they might have an interest in
making better tooling as you suggest. I'm still a stage 1 beginner and am
quite pleased with my simple little rockets.

Post by John Reilly
I've always preferred to ram or press rocket motors on a spindle
rather than solid filling and drilling out a nozzle and or core. For
those beginning to make skyrockets here's an easy tool to make 1-oz.
(3/8" bore rockets). This info came from M.P. Vander Horck's
"PYRONEWS" from 1967 I believe, and was based upon info supplied by
Bill Withrow to Van. The principle is the same for large display
rockets as well. Buy a 3/8" hardwood dowel, a 16d iron nail(sinker
type) and a roll of 3" gummed kraft paper tape (water activated).
Fuel is hand sifted 5/ 1.5/ 1 Potassium Nitrate/ Airfloat
charcoal/Sulfur dust. Clay is plain old Bentonite. Cut off a 5"
length of the dowel for use as a case former and rub it with wax to
prevent glue sticking to it. Cut a 4" length, a 2" length and a 7/8"
length from the same dowel. Carefully and as accurately as possible
drill a 5/32" hole in dead center of one end of the 4" length of
dowel. Drill it abou 2-1/2" deep. Take the 7/8" length of dowel and
drill a 1/8" hole clear through the long way dead center as well.
Slide the 16 penny nail through the 7/8" bored "nipple" and epoxy glue
it with the nail head flush against one end of the nipple. when dry,
cut the nail w/ hacksaw so that 2" projects beyond the nipple. Smooth
the cut with a file or sharpening stone. Take a scrap piece of 2x4
lumber (say 3-1/2" x 3-1/2") as a spindle base and drill a 3/8" hole
5/8" deep in dead center. Epoxy the spindle nipple into this base and
dry. Tear off a 10" length of the gummed paper tape and roll a motor
case (3" long x 3/8" I.D.)on the 5" case former, moistening the glue
and keeping the ends nice and flush. Roll the cases (still on the
former) back and forth between your hand and the table, using heavy
pressure to tighten them. Slip a dried case over the spindle assembly
and add a bit less than 1/4 teaspoon of clay. Slip the hollow 4"
rammer (drift) in the tube and over the spindle and with a one pound
mallet give it 6 or 7 moderate blows, consolidating the clay nozzle.
Withdraw the drift and add 1/4 tsp. fuel. Ram again and repeat until
the fuel reaches the top of the nail (spindle). Switch to the 2"
solid drift and ram until you have 3/8" to 1/2" solid fuel above the
spindle. Ram in another increment of clay as a bulkhead and carefully
twis the finished motor off the spindle assembly. Tape on a light
1/8" stick about 15" long, fuse w/ black match or visco and it should
reach 250' depending on fuel ratio. For a starburst, drill a vent
through the clay bulkhead using a 3/32" drill bit twisted with your
fingers, or else eliminate the clay bulkead entirely. Roll a small
Head out of light paper and add stars and burst. Two tips: after each
increment of clay or fuel is rammed in place, give the spindle a half
turn by holding the motor case and turning the base with the other
hand. This helps keep the spindle centered and keeps it freed up for
later removal. Keep the spindle waxed (rub w/ candle after every 5
motors or so to prevent rust. Wood may be varnished w/ poyurethane.
Also, make another shorter spindle (5/8" projecting beyond nipple) to
use for gerbes and wheel pushers. The three inch gummed paper tape is
perfect for learning case rolling; make spollettes, 1/2" bore
helicopter casings etc. Above all, read, learn and BE SAFE!! The old
timers know what an exciting, challenging and rewarding hobby this is.
Please don't add to the myriad problems we already have by doing
something stupid. JR

John Reilly

2004-02-17 07:11:03 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
I don't mean to be rude, JR, but this does not seem to be "easy" as you say.
Perhaps it is "better" than cutting off some coat hangar tube, pressing some
epoxy, ramming some meal, hot glueing the top, drilling out the nozzle, and
attaching a stick. But it isn't quick and simple satisfaction.
Perhaps for a stage 2 or stage 3 beginner... :-) Once a person gets their
fill of shooting low powered rockets then they might have an interest in
making better tooling as you suggest. I'm still a stage 1 beginner and am
quite pleased with my simple little rockets.

No Pete, you're not being rude. I offered that little 3/8" skyrocket
tool and method to show beginners in the hobby some of the basic
"manipulations"; case rolling, ramming or "charging" a case, choking
with clay etc. But believe me, you can whip up that little spindle
with case former and drifts in an hour. Then you can get some
consistancy, which is what it's all about. I remember what it was like
to light the fuse and wonder what the hell was going to happen (as did
the neighbors). If you standardize your methods, tools and formulas,
you will get the same results. It takes me about 6 minutes to hand
ram a skyrocket whether it's a 2 ounce or 4 pounder. Of course, it
takes a bit longer to roll a 1-1/4" bore rocket or gerbe casing than
the little 3/8" tubes but the principle remains the same. And of
course now, I purchase most of my rocket and gerbe casings rather than
rolling them but I learnt to make them by reading Weingart and Kentish
and lots of practice. My rocket, gerbe and tourbillion tooling was all
made by Rich Wolter and by using the mixes I've tweaked over many
years I get the effect I want consistantly. I enjoy making multibreak
display shells both traditional and my own attempts at Japanese style
Warimono, but as much as anything, I enjoy making quality "class C"
effects like the stuff I shot as a kid. It's very satisfying to scale
down display fireworks effects for more "proximate" venues. As old
Orv Carlisle used to tell me: "think big- work small." Nobody could
squeeze as much fire and noise out of a small rocket as Orv could! My
feeling is if you're not going to make better quality fireworks than
you can buy, why make them at all? JR

Don T

2004-02-17 23:51:49 UTC

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe

ROTFLMAO. That statement sure does bring back fond memories. My first
attempts at "sugar" rockets were made in Thailand just after the war was
"over". I would cook up a batch of fuel, wrap it up nicely in a container,
place shish-ka-bob sticks evenly around the perimeter so the thing looked
vaguely like a badmitten birdie, set it on the concrete pad between the DCO
and the Microwave multiplexer building, call the whole outfit (8 guys at
that time including the CO and 1st shirt) out to watch the launch, light the
rough powder twisted into thin rice paper fuse, and stand back. Sometimes
the rocket flew like a fresh fucked fox from a forest fire and sometimes it
danced a bit before shooting off in an unexpected direction. One of those
"dancers" headed straight for the 120 ft Microwave dish, smacked into a
panel and went BOOOOOM. Left a brownish discoloration where it hit but the
explosion wasn't strong enough to leave a dent. Everyone but me laughed
their asses off. Me, I thought sure the Capn was gonna have my ass. He
didn't. He thought it was all in good fun and nobody was getting hurt. That
was in January of '73, in June of '73 I was up in Laos and got the ding that
ended my carreer as a special operator. The war up there didn't end until
'75.

If you standardize your methods, tools and formulas,

Post by John Reilly
you will get the same results. It takes me about 6 minutes to hand
ram a skyrocket whether it's a 2 ounce or 4 pounder. Of course, it
takes a bit longer to roll a 1-1/4" bore rocket or gerbe casing than
the little 3/8" tubes but the principle remains the same. And of
course now, I purchase most of my rocket and gerbe casings rather than
rolling them but I learnt to make them by reading Weingart and Kentish
and lots of practice. My rocket, gerbe and tourbillion tooling was all
made by Rich Wolter and by using the mixes I've tweaked over many
years I get the effect I want consistantly. I enjoy making multibreak
display shells both traditional and my own attempts at Japanese style
Warimono, but as much as anything, I enjoy making quality "class C"
effects like the stuff I shot as a kid. It's very satisfying to scale
down display fireworks effects for more "proximate" venues. As old
Orv Carlisle used to tell me: "think big- work small." Nobody could
squeeze as much fire and noise out of a small rocket as Orv could! My
feeling is if you're not going to make better quality fireworks than
you can buy, why make them at all? JR

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

2004-02-16 12:57:15 UTC

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

Alan, those are "famous last words" in pyro. One of the things one must do
to survive (more or less) unscathed in this business - or hobby - is
carefully assess risks from a dispassionate, technical viewpoint.

Separate yourself from your need or desire to get the project done, and
analyse. Break the danger elements down, study them individually and
collectively, and determine what you think is the risk. Then carefully
consider what you must do to protect yourself from those specific risks
you're facing, and make a conscious decision about whether or not they're
worth it (to you).

Drilling into a gerb or rocket containing straight BP is pretty safe, so
long as the bit speed it kept slow enough so the tool does not heat up.

Drilling into any composition containing metal is a sure bet for an (at
least occasional) ignition or explosion. You can hardly avoid generating a
few sparks when hardened steel scrapes across titanium.

If you MUST drill into a gerb or rocket, arrange for the entire drilling
depth to be into straight BP. If you must use metal for the comp, make the
nozzle and core with formers rather than a drills.

Keep your drilling speed VERY low; perhaps under 20 rpm. I'd suggest a pin
vise and hand turning of the bit over using any sort of drilling machine --
even a hand-powered rotary drill normally turns too fast.

I'm issuing this diatribe because...

I often prototype new gerbs and pushers by pressing solid clay, then
drilling by hand with various-sized bits to optimize the nozzle diameter. I
use welder's gloves, fully-enclosed safety goggles with NO vents, and a pin
vise to hold the bit. I only always do the drilling outdoors, assessing
first where I should POINT the thing in case it should take fire. I mount
it in a vise in a tube holder with a closed bottom so it won't 'fly' if
lit -- don't want any "screaming chasers" going back toward a building. I
run through a mental exercize to (attempt to) not be startled into inaction
if it does light. I don't want to end up like a deer in headlights during
an accident. I always start with the largest bit, and work down in size, so
I minimize the chance that the device will explode if it takes fire -- the
gloves would be of only a little value if a gerb with four or five ounces of
powder 'nuked' very close to my hand.

Alan, don't be the guy who said from his hospital bed, "Hey, it never hurt
me - before!"

LLoyd

Mike Swisher

2004-02-16 16:16:13 UTC

I will say a hearty amen to all that Lloyd states below.

A good friend of mine, many years ago, had an accident while drilling into a
side-spinning device. The composition had metal fuel. The resultant ignition
shredded the flesh of one of his fingers, leaving only the bone. His doctor
concluded it was impossible to save it and amputated it at the first knuckle.

By the way, this person was not some irresponsible kid. He had a post-graduate
education, a job in one of the "learned professions," a wife and a family. He
also had extensive fireworks experience, both as an advanced amateur firework
maker and as a display operator. Luckily all this took place long before the
present atmosphere of paranoia on the part of the government about "people
making bombs in their basement," and the legal authorities did not add their
insult to his injury.

These things can happen to the best of folks. All it takes is a moment's failure
to THINK.

In article <L63Yb.5856$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh says...

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

Alan, those are "famous last words" in pyro. One of the things one must do
to survive (more or less) unscathed in this business - or hobby - is
carefully assess risks from a dispassionate, technical viewpoint.
Separate yourself from your need or desire to get the project done, and
analyse. Break the danger elements down, study them individually and
collectively, and determine what you think is the risk. Then carefully
consider what you must do to protect yourself from those specific risks
you're facing, and make a conscious decision about whether or not they're
worth it (to you).
Drilling into a gerb or rocket containing straight BP is pretty safe, so
long as the bit speed it kept slow enough so the tool does not heat up.
Drilling into any composition containing metal is a sure bet for an (at
least occasional) ignition or explosion. You can hardly avoid generating a
few sparks when hardened steel scrapes across titanium.
If you MUST drill into a gerb or rocket, arrange for the entire drilling
depth to be into straight BP. If you must use metal for the comp, make the
nozzle and core with formers rather than a drills.
Keep your drilling speed VERY low; perhaps under 20 rpm. I'd suggest a pin
vise and hand turning of the bit over using any sort of drilling machine --
even a hand-powered rotary drill normally turns too fast.
I'm issuing this diatribe because...
I often prototype new gerbs and pushers by pressing solid clay, then
drilling by hand with various-sized bits to optimize the nozzle diameter. I
use welder's gloves, fully-enclosed safety goggles with NO vents, and a pin
vise to hold the bit. I only always do the drilling outdoors, assessing
first where I should POINT the thing in case it should take fire. I mount
it in a vise in a tube holder with a closed bottom so it won't 'fly' if
lit -- don't want any "screaming chasers" going back toward a building. I
run through a mental exercize to (attempt to) not be startled into inaction
if it does light. I don't want to end up like a deer in headlights during
an accident. I always start with the largest bit, and work down in size, so
I minimize the chance that the device will explode if it takes fire -- the
gloves would be of only a little value if a gerb with four or five ounces of
powder 'nuked' very close to my hand.
Alan, don't be the guy who said from his hospital bed, "Hey, it never hurt
me - before!"
LLoyd

Alan Yates

2004-02-16 18:26:03 UTC

I see it as an acceptable risk for BP based compositions without metals
in them. I too go through the mental exercise of deciding how to get
the hell away from it safely if it does ignite. It seems to me that the
clay is far more dangerous than the propellant. Smaller drills tend to
clog and give me the willies about how much volume they block.

How the hell do you make hummer, stinger or z-bomb spin vents without
drilling them though? Drilling them before ramming isn't very
practical, even with granulated propellant. Punching them sounds just
as dangerous IMO?

I've tried the fuse in the hole first and it is generally unreliable,
especially for stingers. It isn't always possible to design the device
so you hit meal alone everytime.

Post by Mike Swisher
I will say a hearty amen to all that Lloyd states below.
A good friend of mine, many years ago, had an accident while drilling into a
side-spinning device. The composition had metal fuel. The resultant ignition
shredded the flesh of one of his fingers, leaving only the bone. His doctor
concluded it was impossible to save it and amputated it at the first knuckle.
By the way, this person was not some irresponsible kid. He had a post-graduate
education, a job in one of the "learned professions," a wife and a family. He
also had extensive fireworks experience, both as an advanced amateur firework
maker and as a display operator. Luckily all this took place long before the
present atmosphere of paranoia on the part of the government about "people
making bombs in their basement," and the legal authorities did not add their
insult to his injury.
These things can happen to the best of folks. All it takes is a moment's failure
to THINK.
Sponenburgh says...

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

Alan, those are "famous last words" in pyro. One of the things one must do
to survive (more or less) unscathed in this business - or hobby - is
carefully assess risks from a dispassionate, technical viewpoint.
Separate yourself from your need or desire to get the project done, and
analyse. Break the danger elements down, study them individually and
collectively, and determine what you think is the risk. Then carefully
consider what you must do to protect yourself from those specific risks
you're facing, and make a conscious decision about whether or not they're
worth it (to you).
Drilling into a gerb or rocket containing straight BP is pretty safe, so
long as the bit speed it kept slow enough so the tool does not heat up.
Drilling into any composition containing metal is a sure bet for an (at
least occasional) ignition or explosion. You can hardly avoid generating a
few sparks when hardened steel scrapes across titanium.
If you MUST drill into a gerb or rocket, arrange for the entire drilling
depth to be into straight BP. If you must use metal for the comp, make the
nozzle and core with formers rather than a drills.
Keep your drilling speed VERY low; perhaps under 20 rpm. I'd suggest a pin
vise and hand turning of the bit over using any sort of drilling machine --
even a hand-powered rotary drill normally turns too fast.
I'm issuing this diatribe because...
I often prototype new gerbs and pushers by pressing solid clay, then
drilling by hand with various-sized bits to optimize the nozzle diameter. I
use welder's gloves, fully-enclosed safety goggles with NO vents, and a pin
vise to hold the bit. I only always do the drilling outdoors, assessing
first where I should POINT the thing in case it should take fire. I mount
it in a vise in a tube holder with a closed bottom so it won't 'fly' if
lit -- don't want any "screaming chasers" going back toward a building. I
run through a mental exercize to (attempt to) not be startled into inaction
if it does light. I don't want to end up like a deer in headlights during
an accident. I always start with the largest bit, and work down in size, so
I minimize the chance that the device will explode if it takes fire -- the
gloves would be of only a little value if a gerb with four or five ounces of
powder 'nuked' very close to my hand.
Alan, don't be the guy who said from his hospital bed, "Hey, it never hurt
me - before!"
LLoyd

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

2004-02-16 19:39:47 UTC

Post by Alan Yates
I see it as an acceptable risk for BP based compositions without metals
in them.

.....>
Yes, if that's the risk level you're willing to assume. It's less dangerous
than metal-bearing comp, for sure.

Post by Alan Yates
How the hell do you make hummer, stinger or z-bomb spin vents without
drilling them though? Drilling them before ramming isn't very
practical, even with granulated propellant......

We always pre-drilled saxons after claying, but before pressing powder --
back when we pressed manually on air presses. Now that we press on
automated machinery, it's difficult to make the machines properly handle and
orient pre-drilled tubes, so we re-designed the effect so we _always_ drill
into plain weak powder (unmilled BP). The drilling is done on hand tapping
stands -- about the closest to hand-held pin vise drilling you can get.

Post by Alan Yates
I've tried the fuse in the hole first and it is generally unreliable,
especially for stingers. It isn't always possible to design the device
so you hit meal alone everytime.

Um... see above. It might be tough with tourbillions, since some types have
multiple vents. With a stinger, it's possible to alter the loading sequence
such that you always only hit BP with the drills. Yes, you get a brief push
without sparks, but that's an acceptable diminishment of the effect in order
to ensure yours or your workers' safety.

Mike Swisher

2004-02-16 19:08:07 UTC

In industrial practice, drilling is sometimes done into composition. Generally
the drill press is set on the slowest pulley and the drill bit may run through a
damp sponge. The devices are handled by remote control and not allowed to
accumulate in the area where drilling takes place.

An amateur drilling into composition would be well advised to use a jig to hold
the device being drilled on the table of the drill press, to have some sort of
shield between the device and himself, and NEVER to hold or steady it with his
hands, as my friend in the instance undernoted did.

One industrial maker I know made "farfalle" (a traditional shell garniture)
using pre-drilled tubes. The hole was pre-drilled through the case at the proper
place, and the tube was then clayed. A nail was inserted into the hole and the
composition pressed. The nail was then withdrawn and the match threaded through
the aperture in the composition that had been pressed around the nail. Safe,
cheap, and effective!

Post by Alan Yates
I see it as an acceptable risk for BP based compositions without metals
in them. I too go through the mental exercise of deciding how to get
the hell away from it safely if it does ignite. It seems to me that the
clay is far more dangerous than the propellant. Smaller drills tend to
clog and give me the willies about how much volume they block.
How the hell do you make hummer, stinger or z-bomb spin vents without
drilling them though? Drilling them before ramming isn't very
practical, even with granulated propellant. Punching them sounds just
as dangerous IMO?
I've tried the fuse in the hole first and it is generally unreliable,
especially for stingers. It isn't always possible to design the device
so you hit meal alone everytime.

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

Alan, those are "famous last words" in pyro. One of the things one must do
to survive (more or less) unscathed in this business - or hobby - is
carefully assess risks from a dispassionate, technical viewpoint.
Separate yourself from your need or desire to get the project done, and
analyse. Break the danger elements down, study them individually and
collectively, and determine what you think is the risk. Then carefully
consider what you must do to protect yourself from those specific risks
you're facing, and make a conscious decision about whether or not they're
worth it (to you).
Drilling into a gerb or rocket containing straight BP is pretty safe, so
long as the bit speed it kept slow enough so the tool does not heat up.
Drilling into any composition containing metal is a sure bet for an (at
least occasional) ignition or explosion. You can hardly avoid generating a
few sparks when hardened steel scrapes across titanium.
If you MUST drill into a gerb or rocket, arrange for the entire drilling
depth to be into straight BP. If you must use metal for the comp, make the
nozzle and core with formers rather than a drills.
Keep your drilling speed VERY low; perhaps under 20 rpm. I'd suggest a pin
vise and hand turning of the bit over using any sort of drilling machine --
even a hand-powered rotary drill normally turns too fast.
I'm issuing this diatribe because...
I often prototype new gerbs and pushers by pressing solid clay, then
drilling by hand with various-sized bits to optimize the nozzle diameter. I
use welder's gloves, fully-enclosed safety goggles with NO vents, and a pin
vise to hold the bit. I only always do the drilling outdoors, assessing
first where I should POINT the thing in case it should take fire. I mount
it in a vise in a tube holder with a closed bottom so it won't 'fly' if
lit -- don't want any "screaming chasers" going back toward a building. I
run through a mental exercize to (attempt to) not be startled into inaction
if it does light. I don't want to end up like a deer in headlights during
an accident. I always start with the largest bit, and work down in size, so
I minimize the chance that the device will explode if it takes fire -- the
gloves would be of only a little value if a gerb with four or five ounces of
powder 'nuked' very close to my hand.
Alan, don't be the guy who said from his hospital bed, "Hey, it never hurt
me - before!"
LLoyd

--
Alan Yates
http://www.vk2zay.net/
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full)

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-17 05:01:34 UTC

This, of course, is good advice.

But even Dan Williams shows pictures of drilling a core in a CGS Fountain...

Alan and I don't even suggest using power tools or even mechanical devices
to turn the bit for little rockets. It is all done by hand and almost no
heat is generated.

I understand the need to be extra carefull. Personally, I wouldn't
recommend drilling a core, but I don't see a problem with hand-twisting a
drill bit to make a nozzle as long as you keep pulling the bit out every
couple of turns to remove the build up and stop at the comp.

Very good recommendation to put straight bp for the first few millimeters
near the nozzle end before ramming this type of rocket with metal stuff.
I'll put this into my practice.

Post by Alan Yates
I've never had any problems drilling the nozzle or core of rockets.

Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
use welder's gloves, fully-enclosed safety goggles with NO vents, and a pin
vise to hold the bit. I only always do the drilling outdoors, assessing
first where I should POINT the thing in case it should take fire. I mount
it in a vise in a tube holder with a closed bottom so it won't 'fly' if
lit -- don't want any "screaming chasers" going back toward a building. I
run through a mental exercize to (attempt to) not be startled into inaction
if it does light. I don't want to end up like a deer in headlights during
an accident. I always start with the largest bit, and work down in size, so
I minimize the chance that the device will explode if it takes fire -- the
gloves would be of only a little value if a gerb with four or five ounces of
powder 'nuked' very close to my hand.
Alan, don't be the guy who said from his hospital bed, "Hey, it never hurt
me - before!"
LLoyd

j***@webtv.net

2004-02-12 15:55:15 UTC

I do not know much about the construction of rockets but posibly the
cardboard tubes from coat hangers might work.

Piccolo Pete

2004-02-12 20:26:06 UTC