Discussion:
Substitute for saran resin in go-getter
(too old to reply)
Henrik
2003-11-13 11:24:56 UTC
Permalink
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can find
contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in time for
when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright blue.
I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a binder, but
since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon which should do
those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for the saran resin?.
I saw an earlier discussion about saran vs. parlon, but since the formulas I
have been looking at both contains parlon and saran resin, the earlier trend
didn't really answer this question.
Could I simply leave the saran resin out of the formula (would it loose it's
strength/integrity) or could I possibly substitute it with say PVC which
should both acts as a chlorine donor and a binder ?

50 Ammonium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
15 Copper(II) Carbonate
10 Aluminum
5 Saran Resin

Appreciate your comments.

Henrik
Old Dog
2003-11-13 15:09:24 UTC
Permalink
To the best of my knowledge there are only a few, and one of those is a variant
of the one you list that actually adds MORE saran at the expense of the parlon.

I was going to suggest chlorinated polyethylene, but the only source I
personally know of is Skylighter, and they sell saran too.

Do you have HTPB available?

Also, there is a formula for "Flatulating Blue Smurfs" that uses GE Silicone II
that would probably work fine for Go Getters, but is MUCH slower to work with
because you must hand-mix the solids into the silicone binder and then hand-ram
the sticky mixture into the tubes....and I think you would have to use
thermalite to ignite it from a shell burst.

Of course, you need either a perc primer, or thermalite, or KP match, or
something else with no potassium nitrate if your formula uses AP - and I very
much doubt any typical dextrin- or NC-bound prime is going to stick well to
silicone.

-Rich
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can find
contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in time for
when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright blue.
I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a binder, but
since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon which should do
those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for the saran resin?.
I saw an earlier discussion about saran vs. parlon, but since the formulas I
have been looking at both contains parlon and saran resin, the earlier trend
didn't really answer this question.
Could I simply leave the saran resin out of the formula (would it loose it's
strength/integrity) or could I possibly substitute it with say PVC which
should both acts as a chlorine donor and a binder ?
50 Ammonium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
15 Copper(II) Carbonate
10 Aluminum
5 Saran Resin
Appreciate your comments.
Henrik
FirmAbs6pk
2003-11-14 08:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Dog
To the best of my knowledge there are only a few, and one of those is a variant
of the one you list that actually adds MORE saran at the expense of the parlon.
I was going to suggest chlorinated polyethylene, but the only source I
personally know of is Skylighter, and they sell saran too.
Do you have HTPB available?
Also, there is a formula for "Flatulating Blue Smurfs" that uses GE Silicone II
that would probably work fine for Go Getters, but is MUCH slower to work with
because you must hand-mix the solids into the silicone binder and then hand-ram
the sticky mixture into the tubes....and I think you would have to use
thermalite to ignite it from a shell burst.
Of course, you need either a perc primer, or thermalite, or KP match, or
something else with no potassium nitrate if your formula uses AP - and I very
much doubt any typical dextrin- or NC-bound prime is going to stick well to
silicone.
-Rich
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can find
contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in time for
when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright blue.
I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a binder, but
since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon which should do
those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for the saran resin?.
I saw an earlier discussion about saran vs. parlon, but since the formulas I
have been looking at both contains parlon and saran resin, the earlier trend
didn't really answer this question.
Could I simply leave the saran resin out of the formula (would it loose it's
strength/integrity) or could I possibly substitute it with say PVC which
should both acts as a chlorine donor and a binder ?
50 Ammonium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
15 Copper(II) Carbonate
10 Aluminum
5 Saran Resin
Appreciate your comments.
Henrik
I've used Saran wrap once as an experiment to make some stars once...
it worked, just was a damn bitch to get the saran to dissolve in
anything... only thing I found that it slightly dissolved in was
M.E.K. certainly would be smart to chop it as finely as possible
before you start dissolving/playing around with it. I'd say try out a
10 g batch with some PVC and see if it works... and if it does, then
increase it to your normal batch size.
Henrik
2003-11-14 10:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Thank you both for your speedy replies. I made a small batch where I
substituted the saran resin with PVC (parts for parts), used plenty of
acetone and squirted it into craft tubes.
I tested some of the dry comb last night and it had a nice clean blue color
although not as deep as I had hoped, but that could ofcorse be because the
comb hadn't yet been cut with acetone.
The go-getters should be dry this evening so will test a few and let you
know.

Henrik
Post by FirmAbs6pk
Post by Old Dog
To the best of my knowledge there are only a few, and one of those is a variant
of the one you list that actually adds MORE saran at the expense of the parlon.
I was going to suggest chlorinated polyethylene, but the only source I
personally know of is Skylighter, and they sell saran too.
Do you have HTPB available?
Also, there is a formula for "Flatulating Blue Smurfs" that uses GE Silicone II
that would probably work fine for Go Getters, but is MUCH slower to work with
because you must hand-mix the solids into the silicone binder and then hand-ram
the sticky mixture into the tubes....and I think you would have to use
thermalite to ignite it from a shell burst.
Of course, you need either a perc primer, or thermalite, or KP match, or
something else with no potassium nitrate if your formula uses AP - and I very
much doubt any typical dextrin- or NC-bound prime is going to stick well to
silicone.
-Rich
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can find
contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in time for
when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright blue.
I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a binder, but
since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon which should do
those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for the saran resin?.
I saw an earlier discussion about saran vs. parlon, but since the formulas I
have been looking at both contains parlon and saran resin, the earlier trend
didn't really answer this question.
Could I simply leave the saran resin out of the formula (would it loose it's
strength/integrity) or could I possibly substitute it with say PVC which
should both acts as a chlorine donor and a binder ?
50 Ammonium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
15 Copper(II) Carbonate
10 Aluminum
5 Saran Resin
Appreciate your comments.
Henrik
I've used Saran wrap once as an experiment to make some stars once...
it worked, just was a damn bitch to get the saran to dissolve in
anything... only thing I found that it slightly dissolved in was
M.E.K. certainly would be smart to chop it as finely as possible
before you start dissolving/playing around with it. I'd say try out a
10 g batch with some PVC and see if it works... and if it does, then
increase it to your normal batch size.
Eirik van der Meer
2003-11-14 11:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can
find contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in
time for when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright
blue. I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a
binder, but since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon
which should do those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for
the saran resin?.
I would assume the Saran is there to act as a binder with the acetone.
Parlon (at least the high-chlorine) is virtually insoluble in any solvent
exept THF.

You said you had substituted the Saran for PVC, that would probably be a
waste of time as PVC should be even less soluble in acetone than Parlon.

Have you considered binding with NC-lacquer?
--
Eirik M

Blir du gammel av å leve?
Henrik
2003-11-14 15:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eirik van der Meer
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can
find contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in
time for when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright
blue. I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a
binder, but since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon
which should do those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for
the saran resin?.
I would assume the Saran is there to act as a binder with the acetone.
Parlon (at least the high-chlorine) is virtually insoluble in any solvent
exept THF.
You said you had substituted the Saran for PVC, that would probably be a
waste of time as PVC should be even less soluble in acetone than Parlon.
Have you considered binding with NC-lacquer?
--
Eirik M
Blir du gammel av å leve?
Saran is as far as I know almost impossible to dissolve in anything, so
doubt it's a binder. Would assume it's a chlorine donor. I have never had
any problems dissolving parlon in acetone. I just use plenty of acetone and
let it evaporate while mixing until it has consistency of pancake batter and
then use a squirt bottle to get it in the tubes.
I'll try make a small batch bound with NC lacquer and see if there should be
any structual or color difference.

Henrik
Eirik van der Meer
2003-11-14 18:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrik
Saran is as far as I know almost impossible to dissolve in anything,
so doubt it's a binder.
I'm sorry, seems I got things a bit backwards. I should know better, as I
have both in stock (actually I have 40 kilo Saran).
Post by Henrik
Would assume it's a chlorine donor.
I agree.
--
Eirik M

Blir du gammel av å leve?
Old Dog
2003-11-14 16:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Eirik,

Judging from my personal experience with the materials available here, you got
it backwards. Chlorinated rubber, "Parlon" or ChlorRub, dissolves quite readily
in acetone, and has been used as a combination chlorine donor and binder for
quite a while. See Troy Fish's article in Pyrotechnica for details. I use it for
Go Getters, and have experimented with it as a binder for star comp poured in PE
molds. It worked quite well, but the results were not superior to stars made
more conventionally and easily.

Saran (a family of chemicals specifically engineered to *resist* chemical
attack) is virtually insoluble in anything. I have managed to get a small amount
of the saran sold by Skylighter to dissolve in MEK with the idea of using it as
a binder in comps which would then resist attack by other solvents. I put some
in an open container to get an idea what the resulting texture would be. The
mixture is still in a liquid state over 1 month later, so it's not exactly a
practical binder IMHO. Maybe oven curing would work to drive off the solvent -
but then I'd have to find a way to remove the flammable vapor from the area, and
there are other oven-cured binders that are already available without the need
for the MEK.

-Rich
Post by Eirik van der Meer
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can
find contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in
time for when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright
blue. I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a
binder, but since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon
which should do those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for
the saran resin?.
I would assume the Saran is there to act as a binder with the acetone.
Parlon (at least the high-chlorine) is virtually insoluble in any solvent
exept THF.
You said you had substituted the Saran for PVC, that would probably be a
waste of time as PVC should be even less soluble in acetone than Parlon.
Have you considered binding with NC-lacquer?
--
Eirik M
Blir du gammel av å leve?
Eirik van der Meer
2003-11-14 18:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Dog
Eirik,
Judging from my personal experience with the materials available here,
you got it backwards.
You're absolutely right, think I had my entire head on bakwards when I
wrote that.
Post by Old Dog
Chlorinated rubber, "Parlon" or ChlorRub,
dissolves quite readily in acetone, and has been used as a combination
chlorine donor and binder for quite a while.
Yup, no argument there.
Post by Old Dog
Saran (a family of chemicals specifically engineered to *resist*
chemical attack) is virtually insoluble in anything.
THF (tetrahydrofurane) works quite well, but that's about it I guess.
--
Eirik M

Blir du gammel av å leve?
Henrik
2003-11-17 12:28:02 UTC
Permalink
I shot the shell's with the blue go-getters this weekend and I'm happy to
report that they worked a charm. Nice clear and bright blue with plenty of
trust.
I substituted the saran with equal weight PVC, bound with acetone and
stuffed a bit of black match in the business end of the tube before the comb
stiffened. As far as I could tell, the whole lot lit.
I tried just for the fun of it a small batch bound with NC lacquer as Erik
suggested, but they where strangely enough considerably harder to light and
had a bit of a yellow tingle to the flame (could be because the they where
burning on the ground held in a wise).
Anyway, seems like one can safely substitute saran with PVC as a chlorine
donor in this type of comb.

Henrik

--
I once had an idea, but it never really took of. Well, it didn't actually
get on the runway. You could say it crashed and burned in the hangar -
Calvin & Hobbes
Post by Henrik
I would like to build some blue go-getters, but all the formulas I can find
contains saran resin which I don't have in stock and can't get in time for
when I plan to use the go-getters.
I found below formula which I have been told produce a nice bright blue.
I first assumed the saran resin was simply a chlorine donor or a binder, but
since the formula already contains quite a lot of parlon which should do
those two jobs fine, I don't really see the need for the saran resin?.
I saw an earlier discussion about saran vs. parlon, but since the formulas I
have been looking at both contains parlon and saran resin, the earlier trend
didn't really answer this question.
Could I simply leave the saran resin out of the formula (would it loose it's
strength/integrity) or could I possibly substitute it with say PVC which
should both acts as a chlorine donor and a binder ?
50 Ammonium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
15 Copper(II) Carbonate
10 Aluminum
5 Saran Resin
Appreciate your comments.
Henrik
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