Discussion:
Saran vs Parlon
(too old to reply)
Patrice Nadeau
2003-09-15 01:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

What are the main differences with Saran being used instead of Parlon in a
star compoisiton? I know that both are good chlorine donor...
What about heat of decomposition? I know that for Parlon, it is nearly 0,
how about Saran? Can I substitute Saran on a 1 to 1 mass basis in recipes
that recommends Parlon?

I found Saran to be cheaper than Parlon, so I would rather Saran whenever
possible (if it has no detrimental effects).

Thanks in advance
PyroLeo
2003-09-15 02:39:46 UTC
Permalink
In general I would have to say that Saran is NOT a direct substitute for
Parlon. Saran is generally used in lower temperature compositions similar to
places where you'd be using PVC. Such as in blue stars or in chlorate or
nitrate star formulas for example.

Parlon is typically used in higher-temperature compositions along with
perchlorates such as mag stars, Go-Getters, Strobes, and so on. In some uses
Parlon plays a dual role, since it also acts as the binder, such as in
Go-Getters or falling leaves.

Leo
---------------
Post by Patrice Nadeau
Hello,
What are the main differences with Saran being used instead of Parlon in a
star compoisiton? I know that both are good chlorine donor...
What about heat of decomposition? I know that for Parlon, it is nearly 0,
how about Saran? Can I substitute Saran on a 1 to 1 mass basis in recipes
that recommends Parlon?
I found Saran to be cheaper than Parlon, so I would rather Saran whenever
possible (if it has no detrimental effects).
Thanks in advance
Paxton
2003-09-15 03:40:15 UTC
Permalink
I haven't seen any blue comps with saran. Do you have any examples?

Also, according to shimizu PVC is ideal in high temperature flames and is
used in all of his magnesium fueled stars and organic red whereas most of
his other comps use parlon.

Do you have any other data that would help us decide which to use when?

If I remember they have different fuel values also which would help
determine its use.

I have seen go getter formulas that use saran as the binder also.

Pax
Post by PyroLeo
In general I would have to say that Saran is NOT a direct substitute for
Parlon. Saran is generally used in lower temperature compositions similar to
places where you'd be using PVC. Such as in blue stars or in chlorate or
nitrate star formulas for example.
Parlon is typically used in higher-temperature compositions along with
perchlorates such as mag stars, Go-Getters, Strobes, and so on. In some uses
Parlon plays a dual role, since it also acts as the binder, such as in
Go-Getters or falling leaves.
Leo
Robert Goodman
2003-09-15 03:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paxton
I haven't seen any blue comps with saran. Do you have any examples?
I've made blue lances:

KClO4 36
corn starch 10
Cu metal powder 6
Saran 5
S flour 3

Multiply by 5/3 to get %.
PyroLeo
2003-09-15 06:41:50 UTC
Permalink
I guess I did oversimplify a bit. For many applications you can make do with a
different chlorine donor, if you don't have the one specified. Most often it's
not going to be a one-to-one replacement though. This would also depend
somewhat on whether the chlorine donor is being used as a fuel too.

You wanted to see a blue using Saran?
63 Pot. Perchlorate
14 Copper Oxide (black)
06 Red Gum
06 Stearic Acid
06 Saran
05 Dextrin

As you see it bends the general guidelines I mentioned in the other post. The
Saran is used here with a perchlorate but it contains no metal fuels, so it's
not what I consider high temp. All my best perchlorate/mag formulas use Parlon
for the chlorine donor.

What was the Go-Getter formula you had that used Saran as a binder?

Leo
------------
Post by Paxton
I haven't seen any blue comps with saran. Do you have any examples?
Also, according to shimizu PVC is ideal in high temperature flames and is
used in all of his magnesium fueled stars and organic red whereas most of
his other comps use parlon.
Do you have any other data that would help us decide which to use when?
If I remember they have different fuel values also which would help
determine its use.
I have seen go getter formulas that use saran as the binder also.
Pax
Post by PyroLeo
In general I would have to say that Saran is NOT a direct substitute for
Parlon. Saran is generally used in lower temperature compositions similar
to
Post by PyroLeo
places where you'd be using PVC. Such as in blue stars or in chlorate
or
Post by PyroLeo
nitrate star formulas for example.
Parlon is typically used in higher-temperature compositions along with
perchlorates such as mag stars, Go-Getters, Strobes, and so on. In some
uses
Post by PyroLeo
Parlon plays a dual role, since it also acts as the binder, such as in
Go-Getters or falling leaves.
Leo
Old Dog
2003-09-15 16:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paxton
I haven't seen any blue comps with saran. Do you have any examples?
Also, according to shimizu PVC is ideal in high temperature flames and is
used in all of his magnesium fueled stars and organic red whereas most of
his other comps use parlon.
Do you have any other data that would help us decide which to use when?
If I remember they have different fuel values also which would help
determine its use.
I have seen go getter formulas that use saran as the binder also.
Pax
That's interesting - I have a collection of Go Getter formulas and while a lot
of them do contain Saran, it is not present as a binder. There are BTW a number
of different "Sarans" - it is not just one substance. According to the Dow
representative with whom I communicated, one of the chief qualities of Saran
materials is their *resistance* to solvents. When I asked him what would
dissolve them, the answer was practically nothing.

The Saran I got from Skylighter is only soluble in MEK (and then only
sparingly), not in absolute alcohol, acetone, xylene or toluene. It would not be
a very practical binder for large projects because it takes so much solvent that
any comp made with it would shrink probably 2-3 fold or more on drying. Of
course, Saran's resistance to solvents could also be put to practical use if you
wanted microstars that were to be used in an NC-bound or Parlon-bound matrix
without dissolving.

-Rich
Paxton
2003-09-15 17:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Yup, in response to you and leo, I guess I had some brain gas or something.
Seen saran in many of them but I checked and they aren't alone. Where I
thought I saw it was in a firefox book on composite color flames where I
thought they had regular go-getter formulas without the polymer binder. I
looked and they are set to use the polymer binder and they have no other
chlorine donors besides the AP. So uhh.. yeah, nevermind :-)

Pax
Post by Old Dog
That's interesting - I have a collection of Go Getter formulas and while a lot
of them do contain Saran, it is not present as a binder. There are BTW a number
of different "Sarans" - it is not just one substance. According to the Dow
representative with whom I communicated, one of the chief qualities of Saran
materials is their *resistance* to solvents. When I asked him what would
dissolve them, the answer was practically nothing.
The Saran I got from Skylighter is only soluble in MEK (and then only
sparingly), not in absolute alcohol, acetone, xylene or toluene. It would not be
a very practical binder for large projects because it takes so much solvent that
any comp made with it would shrink probably 2-3 fold or more on drying. Of
course, Saran's resistance to solvents could also be put to practical use if you
wanted microstars that were to be used in an NC-bound or Parlon-bound matrix
without dissolving.
-Rich
Eirik van der Meer
2003-09-24 01:13:56 UTC
Permalink
There are BTW a number of different "Sarans" - it is not just one
substance. According to the Dow representative with whom I
communicated, one of the chief qualities of Saran materials is their
*resistance* to solvents. When I asked him what would dissolve them,
the answer was practically nothing.
You're right, "Saran" is a group of co-polymers dased on
polyvinylidinechloride (PVDC), all with their own solubilities and chlorine
content. Saran 605 (IIRC) is pure PVDC and thus has the highest chlorine
content of them all. It is also as far as i know the least soluble of them,
the only solvent I could find that would dissolve it to any degree was
tetrahydrofurane (THF).
--
Eirik M

I see fragged people
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