Discussion:
Can PVC be substituted for Parlon?
(too old to reply)
Scott McDougall
2004-08-09 20:22:48 UTC
Permalink
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm

Probably not but I would like to know as all I have is PVC atm.
Johnny
2004-08-10 00:42:51 UTC
Permalink
If what you are aiming for is a chlorine donor in coloured star comps;
the elemnt is there but the finer the powder the better. In short: I
suppose it can as many other chlorine donors. - perhaps not the best
but try it with a small batch if the particulerates are too large it
mat not burn as well thus not releasing as much chlorine. There is
better but if that's what you have try it....it may work even better.
The rating of % chlorine is not the only criterion. Pyro is an
art/science and the completed comp can be robust in colour or weak due
to may factors aside from chlorine donors.
Post by Scott McDougall
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm
Probably not but I would like to know as all I have is PVC atm.
PyroLeo
2004-08-10 01:40:45 UTC
Permalink
As chlorine donors go, PVC is not one of the better choices in my own personal
opinion. However it seems to have it's fans, so I finally stocked up on some
of it recently.

Saran contains a higher percentage of chlorine. However there are more
considerations than just that, since Parlon often acts as a fuel and even a
binder in some formulas. From the binder aspect, Rich reported that he found
there is more than one type of Saran being sold and not all of them are
soluble. The temperature range which the formula functions at can affect your
choice also. It's always been my impression that Parlon was used mostly in
high-temperature mag formulas and PVC was for cooler-burning formulas like
blues. However Paxton claimed Shimizu touts PVC for high temperature formulas.
Basically this question has been asked and answered so many times and in so
many ways that you just need to read all the replies and form your own
conscencus. I'm sure you won't want to hear this, but there are answers to
years of questions just like yours waiting at google.com/groups. I searched
rec.pyrotechnics there for "Parlon Substitute" and it found 148 threads.

In short nothing is stopping you from substituting some amount of pretty much
any chlorine donor for any other chlorine donor. It's not going to be a direct
one-to-one substitution though, and the results will most likely not be as
good. If someone has taken the time to experiment with a formula they've
subsequently published, they've probably already determined what ingredients
worked best in it. If they had an aversion to trying a particular chlorine
donor and your substitute ends up working better, then you've accomplished
something they missed.

Leo
----------------------
***@gmail.com (Scott McDougall) wrote:
<<
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm

Probably not but I would like to know as all I have is PVC atm.
<BR><BR>
Old Dog
2004-08-10 04:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Just to add to the confusion, AFAIK there really is no new Parlon around because
the manufacturer quit making it some time back. What is sold as "Parlon" now is
"Chlor-Rub" or some other brand of chlorinated rubber - a similar but probably
not identical material to the real Parlon.

-Rich
Post by PyroLeo
As chlorine donors go, PVC is not one of the better choices in my own personal
opinion. However it seems to have it's fans, so I finally stocked up on some
of it recently.
Saran contains a higher percentage of chlorine. However there are more
considerations than just that, since Parlon often acts as a fuel and even a
binder in some formulas. From the binder aspect, Rich reported that he found
there is more than one type of Saran being sold and not all of them are
soluble. The temperature range which the formula functions at can affect your
choice also. It's always been my impression that Parlon was used mostly in
high-temperature mag formulas and PVC was for cooler-burning formulas like
blues. However Paxton claimed Shimizu touts PVC for high temperature formulas.
Basically this question has been asked and answered so many times and in so
many ways that you just need to read all the replies and form your own
conscencus. I'm sure you won't want to hear this, but there are answers to
years of questions just like yours waiting at google.com/groups. I searched
rec.pyrotechnics there for "Parlon Substitute" and it found 148 threads.
In short nothing is stopping you from substituting some amount of pretty much
any chlorine donor for any other chlorine donor. It's not going to be a direct
one-to-one substitution though, and the results will most likely not be as
good. If someone has taken the time to experiment with a formula they've
subsequently published, they've probably already determined what ingredients
worked best in it. If they had an aversion to trying a particular chlorine
donor and your substitute ends up working better, then you've accomplished
something they missed.
Leo
----------------------
<<
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm
Probably not but I would like to know as all I have is PVC atm.
<BR><BR>
PyroLeo
2004-08-10 17:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Yes the original Parlon has been long gone for years. From what Mike Beyer
once told me, it had been named for the location where it was made in Parlin
New Jersey.

You can sure tell the difference with your nose. I always thought the smell of
Parlon was pretty pleasant, but not so with Chlorub. Chlorub is also yellowish
in comparison to Parlon. I still have some of of a Japanese product called
Superchlon. There was also an English equivalent which I think they called
Alloprene. I tried to get a bag of Chlorub recently and the supplier was
temporarily out of stock. He offered to substitute an unknown Italian product,
but they said it was apparently somewhat gritty in comparison so I turned it
down.

Leo
----------------------
"Old Dog" <***@atlantic.net>
<<
Just to add to the confusion, AFAIK there really is no new Parlon around
because
the manufacturer quit making it some time back. What is sold as "Parlon" now is
"Chlor-Rub" or some other brand of chlorinated rubber - a similar but probably
not identical material to the real Parlon.

-Rich
Post by PyroLeo
As chlorine donors go, PVC is not one of the better choices in my own personal
opinion. However it seems to have it's fans, so I finally stocked up on some
of it recently.
Saran contains a higher percentage of chlorine. However there are more
considerations than just that, since Parlon often acts as a fuel and even a
binder in some formulas. From the binder aspect, Rich reported that he found
there is more than one type of Saran being sold and not all of them are
soluble. The temperature range which the formula functions at can affect your
choice also. It's always been my impression that Parlon was used mostly in
high-temperature mag formulas and PVC was for cooler-burning formulas like
blues. However Paxton claimed Shimizu touts PVC for high temperature formulas.
Basically this question has been asked and answered so many times and in so
many ways that you just need to read all the replies and form your own
conscencus. I'm sure you won't want to hear this, but there are answers to
years of questions just like yours waiting at google.com/groups. I searched
rec.pyrotechnics there for "Parlon Substitute" and it found 148 threads.
In short nothing is stopping you from substituting some amount of pretty much
any chlorine donor for any other chlorine donor. It's not going to be a direct
one-to-one substitution though, and the results will most likely not be as
good. If someone has taken the time to experiment with a formula they've
subsequently published, they've probably already determined what ingredients
worked best in it. If they had an aversion to trying a particular chlorine
donor and your substitute ends up working better, then you've accomplished
something they missed.
Leo
----------------------
<<
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm
Probably not but I would like to know as all I have is PVC atm.
<BR><BR>
Erlend Meyer
2004-08-10 07:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PyroLeo
From the binder aspect, Rich
reported that he found there is more than one type of Saran being sold
and not all of them are soluble.
Quite right. Saran is actually a series of PVDC-based polymers and co-
polymers, and both solubility and chlorine content can wary significantly.

Saran 506 has the highest chlorine content, but is virtually insoluble in
anything but THF.
--
Erlend Meyer

You can't be forever blessed
Scott McDougall
2004-08-10 13:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erlend Meyer
Post by PyroLeo
From the binder aspect, Rich
reported that he found there is more than one type of Saran being sold
and not all of them are soluble.
Quite right. Saran is actually a series of PVDC-based polymers and co-
polymers, and both solubility and chlorine content can wary significantly.
Saran 506 has the highest chlorine content, but is virtually insoluble in
anything but THF.
In IPP most of the star comps use Parlon except for a few, such as
yellow. Thanks for the responses, I'll try it anyways.
Galen
2004-08-10 14:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Regarding Saran Resin, I really would like to try it since we have
problems with slag formation in our red compositions based on
chlorinated rubber (pergut).

But, it seems virtually impossible to buy it in Europe! For some
reason, the Dow Chemical Company refuses to sell the substance to us
since pyrotechnics seems to be outside what they consider as an
ethical acceptable application!
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2004-08-10 14:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Polyvinylidene resins are in the public domain, now. The Saran trade name
is proprietary to Dow, but PVD is available from numerous vendors, including
some in Europe and China. Some less-than-scrupulous asian vendors actually
label theirs "Saran".

LLoyd
Post by Galen
Regarding Saran Resin, I really would like to try it since we have
problems with slag formation in our red compositions based on
chlorinated rubber (pergut).
But, it seems virtually impossible to buy it in Europe! For some
reason, the Dow Chemical Company refuses to sell the substance to us
since pyrotechnics seems to be outside what they consider as an
ethical acceptable application!
Erlend Meyer
2004-08-10 20:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galen
But, it seems virtually impossible to buy it in Europe! For some
reason, the Dow Chemical Company refuses to sell the substance to us
since pyrotechnics seems to be outside what they consider as an
ethical acceptable application!
Huh! A former co-worker and I found a supplier in Denmark, and got a 60kg
drum for free (no kiddin). We of course had to pay for the freight, but
still a helluva lot cheaper than any other source I've found :-)
--
Erlend Meyer

You can't be forever blessed
Galen
2004-08-11 11:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erlend Meyer
Huh! A former co-worker and I found a supplier in Denmark, and got a 60kg
drum for free (no kiddin). We of course had to pay for the freight, but
still a helluva lot cheaper than any other source I've found :-)
That sounds very interesting!

Is it possible for you to reveal the name of the supplier?
Erlend Meyer
2004-08-11 20:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galen
Post by Erlend Meyer
Huh! A former co-worker and I found a supplier in Denmark, and got a
60kg drum for free (no kiddin). We of course had to pay for the
freight, but still a helluva lot cheaper than any other source I've
found :-)
That sounds very interesting!
Is it possible for you to reveal the name of the supplier?
Honestly, I have no idea whatsoever. My co-worker set up the entire deal,
and all emails I may have recieved on the subject was lost when i left
there.

Best ting is probably to do what he did, send an email to Dow to find the
nearest retailer, and take it from there. Don't tell them it's for pyro,
just ask for a retailer.
--
Erlend Meyer

You can't be forever blessed
Robert Goodman
2004-08-10 17:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott McDougall
In star comps such as the ones at: http://www.unitednuclear.com/star.htm
I'd like to know what the Parlon does for that CaCO3 based orange.
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