Discussion:
red strobe star
(too old to reply)
giovanni forli
2004-01-30 12:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
John Reilly
2004-01-31 00:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
The formulas I have seen for red strobe are all based on Strontium
Sufate and Strontium Carbobate with an Ammonium Perchlorate oxidizer
and of course Magnalium. I haven't made any red but I do make a green
and a white strobe. If I was going to try a red strobe based on
Strontium Nitrate I would try modifying a green strobe mix I use based
on Barium Nitrate, eg: Strontium Nitrate 48%, Potassium Nitrate 12%,
60 mesh Mg/Al alloy 12%, Sulfur 23% and Dextrin 5%. Again, I haven't
tried it as a red but it seems that it would be a good starting point.
As with all strobes, a good hot prime is essential. JR
giovanni forli
2004-01-31 14:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Reilly
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
The formulas I have seen for red strobe are all based on Strontium
Sufate and Strontium Carbobate with an Ammonium Perchlorate oxidizer
and of course Magnalium. I haven't made any red but I do make a green
and a white strobe. If I was going to try a red strobe based on
Strontium Nitrate I would try modifying a green strobe mix I use based
on Barium Nitrate, eg: Strontium Nitrate 48%, Potassium Nitrate 12%,
60 mesh Mg/Al alloy 12%, Sulfur 23% and Dextrin 5%. Again, I haven't
tried it as a red but it seems that it would be a good starting point.
As with all strobes, a good hot prime is essential. JR
Thank you for your response....
I know the best are strobe star made with AP but I'm an italian
manufacturer and in my country AP is not disponible....
I'have a good white strobe and a decent green but whit red I have some
problem..
giovanni forli
2004-01-31 14:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Reilly
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
The formulas I have seen for red strobe are all based on Strontium
Sufate and Strontium Carbobate with an Ammonium Perchlorate oxidizer
and of course Magnalium. I haven't made any red but I do make a green
and a white strobe. If I was going to try a red strobe based on
Strontium Nitrate I would try modifying a green strobe mix I use based
on Barium Nitrate, eg: Strontium Nitrate 48%, Potassium Nitrate 12%,
60 mesh Mg/Al alloy 12%, Sulfur 23% and Dextrin 5%. Again, I haven't
tried it as a red but it seems that it would be a good starting point.
As with all strobes, a good hot prime is essential. JR
In this formulas is not present any chlorine donors.Can the Sr atomic
emission be sufficient to impart a red color in this hot composition?I
think no!
And can any chlorine donors interfere with strobing effect?
Old Dog
2004-01-31 19:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by giovanni forli
Post by John Reilly
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
The formulas I have seen for red strobe are all based on Strontium
Sufate and Strontium Carbobate with an Ammonium Perchlorate oxidizer
and of course Magnalium. I haven't made any red but I do make a green
and a white strobe. If I was going to try a red strobe based on
Strontium Nitrate I would try modifying a green strobe mix I use based
on Barium Nitrate, eg: Strontium Nitrate 48%, Potassium Nitrate 12%,
60 mesh Mg/Al alloy 12%, Sulfur 23% and Dextrin 5%. Again, I haven't
tried it as a red but it seems that it would be a good starting point.
As with all strobes, a good hot prime is essential. JR
In this formulas is not present any chlorine donors.Can the Sr atomic
emission be sufficient to impart a red color in this hot composition?I
think no!
And can any chlorine donors interfere with strobing effect?
Strontium will give an orangey-red without chlorine.

All the old nitrate color strobe formulas I have on record (from Shimizu, Bleser
and Hardt) used HCB, which has a low fuel value (if any). The substitution of
dechlorane in the Desert Blast formulas probably accomplishes the same thing.
The problem with most modern chlorine donors is that they also act as fuels -
another reason AP is a good oxidizer for color strobes.

-Rich
Old Dog
2004-01-31 06:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
The Desert Blast website listed a pink using strontium nitrate:

51% Sr(NO3)2
7% KNO3
19% S
18% Magnalium, 100 mesh
4% Dechlorane
5% Dextrin

I haven't tried it, so no idea if it works. They called it "pink", but that may
just be a subjective appraisal.

-Rich
giovanni forli
2004-01-31 14:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Dog
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
51% Sr(NO3)2
7% KNO3
19% S
18% Magnalium, 100 mesh
4% Dechlorane
5% Dextrin
I haven't tried it, so no idea if it works. They called it "pink", but that may
just be a subjective appraisal.
-Rich
I've tried this pink strobe formulas but i've sobstituted declorane
with PVC and seems that this chlorine donors interfer with strobing
effect...I'have access only to PVC and Parlon..
Old Dog
2004-01-31 19:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by giovanni forli
Post by Old Dog
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
51% Sr(NO3)2
7% KNO3
19% S
18% Magnalium, 100 mesh
4% Dechlorane
5% Dextrin
I haven't tried it, so no idea if it works. They called it "pink", but that may
just be a subjective appraisal.
-Rich
I've tried this pink strobe formulas but i've sobstituted declorane
with PVC and seems that this chlorine donors interfer with strobing
effect...I'have access only to PVC and Parlon..
Have you tried the Parlon? I believe it has a lower fuel value than the PVC, and
it is that fuel value that maintains a steady burn and prevents the smoulder or
dark stage.

-Rich
blueblue
2004-01-31 23:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Dog
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate
based?thank you!!!
snipped
I've tried this pink strobe formulas but i've sobstituted declorane
with PVC and seems that this chlorine donors interfer with strobing
effect...I'have access only to PVC and Parlon..
Have you tried the Parlon? I believe it has a lower fuel value than
the PVC, and it is that fuel value that maintains a steady burn and
prevents the smoulder or dark stage.
-Rich
Fuel value? would you be more clear?
is this the amount of species that burn quite well (C,H...) and consequently
that disturb the dark stage?
Can you put a dimension beside the "fuel value"?

For Giovanni,
I do not remember exactly the formula I have already tried but it was a mix
with Sr nitrate and K nitrate (KNO3 is at least 10% in order to have enough
gaz for producing the flash in a short time but no more than 10 because it
is quickly white...so it is 10%)
Of course, NH4ClO4 is prohibited with Sr(NO3)2 and water is also not
recommanded
these formulae (NO3 based) have a problem with the black stage that is more
and more long when the stars are more and more little.
So it is better to use a ClO4NH4,Sr SO4 formula.

Finaly, yes, the amount of binder must be as low as it is possible keeping
the stars enough hard.

blueblue
Old Dog
2004-02-01 01:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by blueblue
Post by Old Dog
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank you!!!
snipped
I've tried this pink strobe formulas but i've sobstituted declorane
with PVC and seems that this chlorine donors interfer with strobing
effect...I'have access only to PVC and Parlon..
Have you tried the Parlon? I believe it has a lower fuel value than
the PVC, and it is that fuel value that maintains a steady burn and
prevents the smoulder or dark stage.
-Rich
Fuel value? would you be more clear?
I mean fuel in the sense that it will react readily with oxygen released from
the oxidizer. Dechlorane for instance is definitely not a fuel - my information
indicates it can actually extinguish flame if enough is present. Saran and PVC
on the other hand will react with the oxygen to some extent. They are not
*fuels* per se; that is, you could not use them as the only fuel in a
composition (at least I have never run into a formula for such a comp) but they
are sufficient to interfere with the "strobe" reaction if present in sufficient
quantities.
Post by blueblue
is this the amount of species that burn quite well (C,H...) and consequently
that disturb the dark stage?
Doesn't have to be "quite well".
Post by blueblue
Can you put a dimension beside the "fuel value"?
No. I've never seen any fuel or oxygen consumption values for Parlon.

-Rich
FirmAbs6pk
2004-02-01 10:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Old Dog
They are not
*fuels* per se; that is, you could not use them as the only fuel in a
composition (at least I have never run into a formula for such a comp) but
sure, PVC works great as a fuel, like my simple Ammonium perchlorate,
PVC, and copper carbonate hydroxide (malachite) blue star, or the
incredibly simple salmon colored star... Ammonium Perchlorate, and
FIMO modelling clay (mostly PVC)

Saran, on the other hand, I've found to be much less useful of a fuel.
I've never gotten a comp to *stay* lit that contained saran as the
only fuel. sure gives off a nice amount of chlorine though (and an
awful smell)!

~Firm
Mike Swisher
2004-02-01 18:52:22 UTC
Permalink
PVC most definitely has fuel value. This is the finding of Takeo Shimizu's
"Studies on Blue and Purple Flame Compositions" (p.5 et seq., PYROTECHICA VI,
July, 1980). He gives compositions using only PVC as fuel (e.g., B1, B2, B3,
B19, B20, B21, B31, and B37); although a little slow for stars, they make good
lance compositions. I'm aware of a major US maker of lance that uses, or at
least once used, a composition consisting only of potassium perchlorate, CuO,
and PVC.

More importantly for typical star formulation, if PVC is to be used as a
chlorine donor, allowance has to be made for it in the proportion of other
fuels. As Shimizu points out, this isn't the case with Parlon. I have not found
it to be much of a concern with HCB either. Undoubtedly both have some oxygen
demand but not enough to upset burning.

My feeling is that PVC wouldn't be an ideal chlorine donor in a strobe
composition, because organic fuels tend to promote continuous burning and thus
work against the clear demarcation of smoulder and flash combustion phases. A
chlorine donor like Parlon, with negligible active fule value, seems a better
choice, and is in fact what's used in most of the ammonium perchlorate/metal
sulphate/Mg or Mg-Al strobe compositions I have seen.
Post by FirmAbs6pk
Post by Old Dog
They are not
*fuels* per se; that is, you could not use them as the only fuel in a
composition (at least I have never run into a formula for such a comp) but
sure, PVC works great as a fuel, like my simple Ammonium perchlorate,
PVC, and copper carbonate hydroxide (malachite) blue star, or the
incredibly simple salmon colored star... Ammonium Perchlorate, and
FIMO modelling clay (mostly PVC)
Saran, on the other hand, I've found to be much less useful of a fuel.
I've never gotten a comp to *stay* lit that contained saran as the
only fuel. sure gives off a nice amount of chlorine though (and an
awful smell)!
~Firm
blueblue
2004-02-01 21:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by FirmAbs6pk
Post by Old Dog
They are not
*fuels* per se; that is, you could not use them as the only fuel in
a composition (at least I have never run into a formula for such a
comp) but
sure, PVC works great as a fuel, like my simple Ammonium perchlorate,
PVC, and copper carbonate hydroxide (malachite) blue star, or the
incredibly simple salmon colored star... Ammonium Perchlorate, and
FIMO modelling clay (mostly PVC)
Saran, on the other hand, I've found to be much less useful of a
fuel. I've never gotten a comp to *stay* lit that contained saran as
the only fuel. sure gives off a nice amount of chlorine though (and
an awful smell)!
~Firm
Sorry but i do not understand "se" in the sentence*fuel* per "se"
can you explain to me the meaning of this expression?

But now we all agree that the binder is often the problem because of his
"fuel value"
May be there is a new way for strobe stars using a ciment or plaster as
binder
this would be the newest mineral star with mineral binder, with a very
little amount of binder in order to keep the combustion behavior of the
mix!!!!
any comment?
blueblue
8-o
Mike Swisher
2004-02-02 16:38:06 UTC
Permalink
The poster who used the phrase "per se" was Rich Ogden, not I. However, I'm
happy to explain. "Per se" is a Latin tag meaning "by itself, alone, without
help."

My response, which you apparently snipped, was to the effect that PVC does have
fuel value, and can be used alone as a fuel. This is not true of several other
chlorine donors, for example, Parlon, hexachlorobenzene, and dechlorane.

As far as using plaster as a binder: anhydrous calcium sulphate can indeed be
used in conjunction with ammonium perchlorate and magnesium or magnalium to make
a pinkish-orange strobe. I have seen stars made with such a composition.
However, the calcium sulphate was not used as a binder. The function it
fulfilled was as the oxidizer for the flash phase. See Shimizu's article
"Studies on Strobe Light Pyrotechnic Compositions," pp. 5 - 28, PYROTECHNICA
VIII (June, 1982). Formula 39, on p. 20, contains calcium sulphate.

The problem with using it as a binder is that to do so would entail adding water
to the composition. The calcium sulphate would then set up as gypsum, containing
two molecules of water of hydration (CaSO4.2H2O). It is hard to predict what
effect this would have on the performance of the composition, other than to
suggest it would probably not be good.

It is customary to use a non-aqueous binder for ammonium perchlorate strobe
stars, on the principle that rigorous exclusion of water from these compositions
is necessary (because water facilitates the ammonium perchlorate/magnesium
corrosion reaction, even in the presence of ammonium dichromate). It is my
observation that uptake of humidity is the usual cause for deterioration of
strobe stars of this type.

Almost everyone who works with this type of star employs a solution of
nitrocellulose in acetone or some other suitable vehicle ("NC lacquer").
Post by blueblue
Post by FirmAbs6pk
Post by Old Dog
They are not
*fuels* per se; that is, you could not use them as the only fuel in
a composition (at least I have never run into a formula for such a
comp) but
sure, PVC works great as a fuel, like my simple Ammonium perchlorate,
PVC, and copper carbonate hydroxide (malachite) blue star, or the
incredibly simple salmon colored star... Ammonium Perchlorate, and
FIMO modelling clay (mostly PVC)
Saran, on the other hand, I've found to be much less useful of a
fuel. I've never gotten a comp to *stay* lit that contained saran as
the only fuel. sure gives off a nice amount of chlorine though (and
an awful smell)!
~Firm
Sorry but i do not understand "se" in the sentence*fuel* per "se"
can you explain to me the meaning of this expression?
But now we all agree that the binder is often the problem because of his
"fuel value"
May be there is a new way for strobe stars using a ciment or plaster as
binder
this would be the newest mineral star with mineral binder, with a very
little amount of binder in order to keep the combustion behavior of the
mix!!!!
any comment?
blueblue
8-o
Robert Goodman
2004-02-03 00:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Swisher
As far as using plaster as a binder: anhydrous calcium sulphate can indeed be
used in conjunction with ammonium perchlorate and magnesium or magnalium to make
a pinkish-orange strobe. I have seen stars made with such a composition.
However, the calcium sulphate was not used as a binder. The function it
fulfilled was as the oxidizer for the flash phase. See Shimizu's article
"Studies on Strobe Light Pyrotechnic Compositions," pp. 5 - 28, PYROTECHNICA
VIII (June, 1982). Formula 39, on p. 20, contains calcium sulphate.
The problem with using it as a binder is that to do so would entail adding water
to the composition. The calcium sulphate would then set up as gypsum, containing
two molecules of water of hydration (CaSO4.2H2O).
And get HOT in the process.
blueblue
2004-02-06 20:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for coming back so late but I am working week days far from my PC
Post by Mike Swisher
The poster who used the phrase "per se" was Rich Ogden, not I.
However, I'm happy to explain. "Per se" is a Latin tag meaning "by
itself, alone, without help."
Thank you (and thanks to old dog too)
Post by Mike Swisher
My response, which you apparently snipped, was to the effect that PVC
does have fuel value, and can be used alone as a fuel. This is not
true of several other chlorine donors, for example, Parlon,
hexachlorobenzene, and dechlorane.
Of course, they do not burn very well because they carry a lot of Cl
but they can burn when helped (ie: with a metal)
Post by Mike Swisher
As far as using plaster as a binder: anhydrous calcium sulphate can
indeed be used in conjunction with ammonium perchlorate and magnesium
or magnalium to make a pinkish-orange strobe. I have seen stars made
with such a composition. However, the calcium sulphate was not used
as a binder. The function it fulfilled was as the oxidizer for the
flash phase. See Shimizu's article "Studies on Strobe Light
Pyrotechnic Compositions," pp. 5 - 28, PYROTECHNICA VIII (June,
1982). Formula 39, on p. 20, contains calcium sulphate.
Yes, that's right, but my hope is to dig a litttle more this way.
CaSO4,1/2 H20 ----> CaSO4,2H20
It is no more than 1.5 H20 add.
that is: 40+32+64+9=145 give 145+27=172

Immagine:
Oxydant,reductor,....=95% (water compatible)
plaster......................=5%

adding water (just the amount necessary to make gypsum)

will give 5 x 1.18 = 6


What will be the grains or the cylindrical stars ( with pressure)?
I do not know!
Post by Mike Swisher
The problem with using it as a binder is that to do so would entail
adding water to the composition. The calcium sulphate would then set
up as gypsum, containing two molecules of water of hydration
(CaSO4.2H2O). It is hard to predict what effect this would have on
the performance of the composition, other than to suggest it would
probably not be good.
probaly yes,
may be,... but there is a hope that +1% water does not destroy the behaviors
of the mix
Post by Mike Swisher
It is customary to use a non-aqueous binder for ammonium perchlorate
strobe stars, on the principle that rigorous exclusion of water from
these compositions is necessary (because water facilitates the
ammonium perchlorate/magnesium corrosion reaction, even in the
presence of ammonium dichromate). It is my observation that uptake of
humidity is the usual cause for deterioration of strobe stars of this
type.
Here, we come back to the strobe effect:
Does, I do not know, Sr(SO4) or Ba(SO4) have an hemi-hydrate that can be
turn in di hydrate with water?
Post by Mike Swisher
Almost everyone who works with this type of star employs a solution of
nitrocellulose in acetone or some other suitable vehicle ("NC
lacquer").
I think that the chinese strobe stars are made with water soluble binder.
Sorry but I have not enough time to do the experience consisting in dipping
chinese strobe star in a glass of water
in order to dissolve the binder and to confirm (or infirm ) what I am
telling here.
If someone know or have time may be we will know?

I hope you can read my frenglish,
do not hesitate to correct my langage
I have two targets
1/ sharring my passion
2/ be more fluent in english

blueblue
8-o
Old Dog
2004-02-02 19:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by blueblue
Sorry but i do not understand "se" in the sentence*fuel* per "se"
can you explain to me the meaning of this expression?
Per se, borrowed from Latin, meaning "by (or in) itself; intrinsically". As it
turns out, there are a few formulas in which PVC actually IS used as the fuel.
That only supports my original point - PVC is not an ideal chlorine donor for
strobes because it reacts with the oxygden from oxidizers well enough to
interfere with the smoulder stage.
Post by blueblue
But now we all agree that the binder is often the problem because of his
"fuel value"
May be there is a new way for strobe stars using a ciment or plaster as
binder
this would be the newest mineral star with mineral binder, with a very
little amount of binder in order to keep the combustion behavior of the
mix!!!!
any comment?
It might work if you only wanted orange stars - calcium gives a pinkish-orange
to bright orange flame, depending on the temperature. Then again, you might have
to use so much to hold the stars together that they wouldn't burn at all...

But there's no need. NC lacquer has been used quite successfully as a binder.
Smokeless powder dissolved in an appropriate solvent would likely work as long
as it didn't contain any stabilizers/binders that interfered with flame color.

-Rich
Old Dog
2004-02-02 19:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Swisher
PVC most definitely has fuel value. This is the finding of Takeo Shimizu's
"Studies on Blue and Purple Flame Compositions" (p.5 et seq., PYROTECHICA VI,
July, 1980).
I definitely need to fill in some holes in my library...

-Rich
John Reilly
2004-02-01 00:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by giovanni forli
Post by giovanni forli
Post by Old Dog
Post by giovanni forli
Can someone send me a red strobe comp on strontium nitrate based?thank
you!!!
Post by giovanni forli
Post by Old Dog
51% Sr(NO3)2
7% KNO3
19% S
18% Magnalium, 100 mesh
4% Dechlorane
5% Dextrin
I haven't tried it, so no idea if it works. They called it "pink", but that
may
Post by giovanni forli
Post by Old Dog
just be a subjective appraisal.
-Rich
I've tried this pink strobe formulas but i've sobstituted declorane
with PVC and seems that this chlorine donors interfer with strobing
effect...I'have access only to PVC and Parlon..
Have you tried the Parlon? I believe it has a lower fuel value than the PVC, and
it is that fuel value that maintains a steady burn and prevents the smoulder or
dark stage.
-Rich
I'm not as familiar with the various strobe mechanisms and formulae as
some others following this forum but the formula that Rich supplied
from Desert Blast looks to me as if it would be an identifiable red as
opposed to pink strobe, especially with the Dechlorane. It's funny
about Strontium Nitrate as compared with Strontium Carbonate red
stars; the Nitrate always seems to give a better red to me in a basic
Chlorate/ red gum, dextrin bound star with or without a bit of
lampblack or charcoal dust. I normally don't add any chlorine donors
with red. It's too bad that Sr(NO3)2 is so damned hygroscopic or I'd
use it exclusively for red and red Mag stars. Summers are very hot and
muggy here.
The old mix: Strontium Nitrate- 3 parts
Magnesium (100 M)- 1 part
makes a beautiful bright ruby red star without any addl. chlorine
donors damped w/ linseed oil and pressed into pillbox. Perhaps
additional fuel rich chlorine donors like PVC or Saran would destroy
the strobe effect in a red nitrate strobe mix as Rich said. I don't
know. JR
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