Discussion:
Potassium Bromate Blue stars
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indianpyro
2004-12-28 16:47:18 UTC
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Howdy Guys,

Indian Pyro here..I have greeeat success of using Potassium bromate
as an oxidizer for intense blue color stars.Very interesting effects
can be obtained..I ask you to replace potassium perchlorate and
Potassium chlorate.Potassium bromate is safe and usable!

But I strongly agree to avoid fuels like MG/AL,AL unless the
explosion will take place.

If anyone requires the blue color stars formula I can e-mail them.

Right now,from Blue colors the following are under processing :
A) Pill Box stars
B) Comets

Indian Pyro
Rich (aka Old Dog)
2004-12-28 21:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Good God, he's back and he still hasn't learned a thing!

DO NOT use bromates if you value your health / life! The products of combustion
are VERY toxic!

-Rich
Post by indianpyro
Howdy Guys,
Indian Pyro here..I have greeeat success of using Potassium bromate
as an oxidizer for intense blue color stars.Very interesting effects
can be obtained..I ask you to replace potassium perchlorate and
Potassium chlorate.Potassium bromate is safe and usable!
But I strongly agree to avoid fuels like MG/AL,AL unless the
explosion will take place.
If anyone requires the blue color stars formula I can e-mail them.
A) Pill Box stars
B) Comets
Indian Pyro
Russ
2004-12-28 23:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Rich,

Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?

Russ
Rich (aka Old Dog)
2004-12-29 00:59:52 UTC
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Post by Russ
Rich,
Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?
Russ
Like India doesn't have enough problems...

-Rich
miseryland
2004-12-29 16:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by Russ
Rich,
Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?
Russ
Like India doesn't have enough problems...
-Rich
true however K bromate IS safe on one condition imho
they are OK if they are used in stars with high velocity high altitude
launches AND as long as they are used in open ventilation AND in
reliable(?) devices, i have used it safely however i would strongly
caution anyone using it in experimental (or unpredictable) devices.
Rich (aka Old Dog)
2004-12-30 15:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by miseryland
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by Russ
Rich,
Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?
Russ
Like India doesn't have enough problems...
-Rich
true however K bromate IS safe on one condition imho
they are OK if they are used in stars with high velocity high altitude
launches AND as long as they are used in open ventilation AND in
reliable(?) devices, i have used it safely however i would strongly
caution anyone using it in experimental (or unpredictable) devices.
Considering I have personally seen shells made by very experienced pyrotechnists
blow up guns in the ground, rockets made by LONG-time rocket builders CATO in
the racks, etc. etc. I think "unpredictable" pretty much covers everything we
do. The point is that there are perfectly acceptable and far safer oxidizers
available - there's no reason to use highly toxic materials "just to be
different" at a far higher level of risk.

-Rich
Smeltsmoke
2004-12-30 17:03:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:52:57 GMT, "Rich \(aka Old Dog\)"
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by miseryland
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by Russ
Rich,
Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?
Russ
Like India doesn't have enough problems...
-Rich
true however K bromate IS safe on one condition imho
they are OK if they are used in stars with high velocity high altitude
launches AND as long as they are used in open ventilation AND in
reliable(?) devices, i have used it safely however i would strongly
caution anyone using it in experimental (or unpredictable) devices.
Considering I have personally seen shells made by very experienced pyrotechnists
blow up guns in the ground, rockets made by LONG-time rocket builders CATO in
the racks, etc. etc. I think "unpredictable" pretty much covers everything we
do. The point is that there are perfectly acceptable and far safer oxidizers
available - there's no reason to use highly toxic materials "just to be
different" at a far higher level of risk.
-Rich
Rich have you read his post under "Faster Burning Igniters" yet?
Mike Swisher
2004-12-30 20:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by miseryland
Post by Rich (aka Old Dog)
Post by Russ
Rich,
Haven't you ever heard of Natural Selection?
Russ
Like India doesn't have enough problems...
-Rich
true however K bromate IS safe on one condition imho
they are OK if they are used in stars with high velocity high altitude
launches AND as long as they are used in open ventilation AND in
reliable(?) devices, i have used it safely however i would strongly
caution anyone using it in experimental (or unpredictable) devices.
Considering I have personally seen shells made by very experienced pyrotechnists
blow up guns in the ground, rockets made by LONG-time rocket builders CATO in
the racks, etc. etc. I think "unpredictable" pretty much covers everything we
do. The point is that there are perfectly acceptable and far safer oxidizers
available - there's no reason to use highly toxic materials "just to be
different" at a far higher level of risk.
-Rich
I'm not sure how "highly toxic" potassium bromate is as compared to potassium
chlorate - I'd not care to eat much of either. As for the decomposition
products, in normal circumstances free Br would NOT be produced. Just as
potassium chlorate (in the absence of sulphur) decomposes to potassium chloride
and oxygen, potassium bromate should decompose to potassium bromide and oxygen.
Even if free Br existed in the flame, as free Cl sometimes does, it would not
persist once combustion ceased.

Potassium bromide is not particularly toxic - it used, at least, to be employed
as a sedative (hence the soubriquet "a bromide" to describe a boring cliché).
Either it or sodium bromide were in the popular remedy "Bromo Seltzer," although
I think this is no longer the case. Dosages up to gr. xxx (approx. 2 grammes)
were therapeutically used. Toxic dosage, called bromism, causes problems
including bromitic acne, nervous disorders, and hallucinations, but is the
consequence of chronic overuse. Evelyn Waugh's novel "The Ordeal of Gilbert
Pinfold" is a thinly disguised autobiographical account of its author's
overreliance on a chloral hydrate and bromide sedative - quite harrowing and
oddly funny at the same time.

All this being said - why would anyone want to use so expensive a chemical as
potassium bromate when the chlorate and perchlorate are so much more readily and
cheaply available? The properties of these chemicals are well enough understood
and - much anti-chlorate hooplah to the contrary - it is quite possible to
preclude the obvious hazards. The necessary good housekeeping, careful handling,
and avoidance of incompatible mixtures are simple procedures to implement.

That you can make potassium bromate work as an oxidizer is established, but
other than to demonstrate that fact again, there is little economic or aesthetic
reason to use it in fireworks.
Rich (aka Old Dog)
2004-12-31 04:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Swisher
I'm not sure how "highly toxic" potassium bromate is as compared to potassium
chlorate - I'd not care to eat much of either. As for the decomposition
products, in normal circumstances free Br would NOT be produced. Just as
potassium chlorate (in the absence of sulphur) decomposes to potassium chloride
and oxygen, potassium bromate should decompose to potassium bromide and oxygen.
Even if free Br existed in the flame, as free Cl sometimes does, it would not
persist once combustion ceased.
Mike, it is my understanding that there are some organic compounds formed with
bromine under conditions of incomplete combustion that are the toxic byproducts.
Unlike chlorine, bromine is not generally recognized as an essential element for
animals or plants, so any excess "consumption" should be treated with caution.

-Rich
Mike Swisher
2004-12-31 16:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Swisher
Post by Mike Swisher
I'm not sure how "highly toxic" potassium bromate is as compared to potassium
chlorate - I'd not care to eat much of either. As for the decomposition
products, in normal circumstances free Br would NOT be produced. Just as
potassium chlorate (in the absence of sulphur) decomposes to potassium
chloride
Post by Mike Swisher
and oxygen, potassium bromate should decompose to potassium bromide and
oxygen.
Post by Mike Swisher
Even if free Br existed in the flame, as free Cl sometimes does, it would not
persist once combustion ceased.
Mike, it is my understanding that there are some organic compounds formed with
bromine under conditions of incomplete combustion that are the toxic byproducts.
Unlike chlorine, bromine is not generally recognized as an essential element for
animals or plants, so any excess "consumption" should be treated with caution.
-Rich
I think you will find that organic chlorine compounds are formed under similar
conditions, and they aren't any nicer. Good heavens, chlorination of water leads
to their formation when the chlorine combines with organic matter in the water
supply. This means that all chlorinated drinking water contains, inter alia,
minute amounts of dioxins. This is tolerable considering that one of the
alternatives is widespread typhoid fever.

The use of bromated flour (which is an everyday occurrence) is much more likely
to be a source of bromine intake than the occasional use of bromates in firework
compositions. It hasn't been reported to be a source of problems.

The reason for not using bromates in fireworks isn't environmental. It is
economic.
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