Igniter Pyrogen Composition

[Michael Newton]

Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.

Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?

Regards,
Michael Newton

[smeltsmoke]

Google is faster and will yeild much more results to old posts

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?
Regards,
Michael Newton

Smeltsmoke

[Mike Poulton]

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?

Sort of. It's somewhat hard to light, so it is generally better to use a
more sensitive composition. Something containing chlorate, aluminum,
sulfur, and manganese dioxide with a nitrocellulose binder. It is highly
recommended that such comps NEVER be mixed dry -- that would be utterly
insane. Add the powdered components to nitrocellulose lacquer (thick
syrup) and mix. The low ignition temperature ensures that the comp will
ignite reliably before the bridgewire fails.
--
Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies

Live free or die! http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

Unless the government has a really excellent reason, anyone should be
allowed to possess, own, purchase, store, use, publish, say, or do
anything that does not cause demonstrable harm to another person without
that person's consent. "To fight terrorism" in the vague sense is not
even close to sufficient reason.

[Joel Corwith]

There was a question on storage of the liquid igniter pyrogen as the acetone
evaporates even in a tightly sealed jar. Are these formulations safe to
store in a glass jar with metal lid (threads)? I searched the newsgroups
and didn't turn up anything on 'metal lid' and yahoo information talked
about highly energetic formulations. I'm guessing the concern was if a drip
of composition were to dry on the top edge or in the threads would the
friction/pressure be capable of igniting the mixture. I did learn that the
Firefox pyrogen ships with a glass jar/metal lid and stays liquid longer
than another brand who used to use plastic for both. Is there a resource
out there that would confirm/dispel the 'metal lid=boom' comment made (for
igniter comps)?

Thanks for your time,
Joel. phx

Post by Mike Poulton

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?

Sort of. It's somewhat hard to light, so it is generally better to use a
more sensitive composition. Something containing chlorate, aluminum,
sulfur, and manganese dioxide with a nitrocellulose binder. It is highly
recommended that such comps NEVER be mixed dry -- that would be utterly
insane. Add the powdered components to nitrocellulose lacquer (thick
syrup) and mix. The low ignition temperature ensures that the comp will
ignite reliably before the bridgewire fails.
--
Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies

[Michael F]

I used the bridgeless Firefox Igniter comp and it came in a glass jar but
the NC came separate and the oxidizer is separate. All are combined when
you are ready to dip the matches. And it is reccomended that you use all
the comp at that time. The bottle is very small and I was skeptical until I
dipped 260 matches out of that one little bottle and all of them have worked
so far!

:)michael

Post by Joel Corwith
There was a question on storage of the liquid igniter pyrogen as the acetone
evaporates even in a tightly sealed jar. Are these formulations safe to
store in a glass jar with metal lid (threads)? I searched the newsgroups
and didn't turn up anything on 'metal lid' and yahoo information talked
about highly energetic formulations. I'm guessing the concern was if a drip
of composition were to dry on the top edge or in the threads would the
friction/pressure be capable of igniting the mixture. I did learn that the
Firefox pyrogen ships with a glass jar/metal lid and stays liquid longer
than another brand who used to use plastic for both. Is there a resource
out there that would confirm/dispel the 'metal lid=boom' comment made (for
igniter comps)?
Thanks for your time,
Joel. phx

Post by Mike Poulton

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?

Sort of. It's somewhat hard to light, so it is generally better to use a
more sensitive composition. Something containing chlorate, aluminum,
sulfur, and manganese dioxide with a nitrocellulose binder. It is highly
recommended that such comps NEVER be mixed dry -- that would be utterly
insane. Add the powdered components to nitrocellulose lacquer (thick
syrup) and mix. The low ignition temperature ensures that the comp will
ignite reliably before the bridgewire fails.
--
Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies

[Jeff]

Post by Joel Corwith
There was a question on storage of the liquid igniter pyrogen as the acetone
evaporates even in a tightly sealed jar. Are these formulations safe to
store in a glass jar with metal lid (threads)? <snip> Is there a resource
out there that would confirm/dispel the 'metal lid=boom' comment made (for
igniter comps)?

Sure. I'll do it. If you are conscientious and keep your comp wetted,
the worst that can happen is ignition of a small amount of comp in the
threads and possibly a short lived acetone fire. Sounds manageable to
me. Just use safety precautions appropriate to the risk.

Jeff

[Michael Newton]

smeltsmoke,

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying I should do a
Google search for igniter pyrogen compositions? I just tried it and
got zip. And, nobody has responded to this thread with a formula yet
either. I doubt if anyone ever will. They're too afraid of the
Gestap.. uhh.. BATFE.

Regards,
Michael Newton

Post by smeltsmoke
Google is faster and will yeild much more results to old posts

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?
Regards,
Michael Newton

Smeltsmoke

[smeltsmoke]

I did just that and got quite a few informative posts...
No time to re-hash all that now but try :
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=rec.pyrotechnics&as_usubject=pyrogen&lr=&hl=en
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=rec.pyrotechnics&as_usubject=ignitor&lr=&hl=en
maybe you are doing something wrong?

Post by Michael Newton
smeltsmoke,
I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying I should do a
Google search for igniter pyrogen compositions? I just tried it and
got zip. And, nobody has responded to this thread with a formula yet
either. I doubt if anyone ever will. They're too afraid of the
Gestap.. uhh.. BATFE.
Regards,
Michael Newton

Smeltsmoke

[Alan Yates]

Can't you just experiment for yourself?

It seems the basic idea is to have something that spits lots of sparks and
hot slag. IIRC I read somewhere that silicon or boron is often added for
that purpose.

I have zero experence with composite propellant motors, but I've found with
sugar based ones it helps if the ignitor generates a fair bit of pressure as
well and sparks. I gather it helps get the motor up to working pressure
faster. Of course you have to be careful not to blow the motor up if your
ignitor is a chunky cracker rather than a pretty gerb.

I use greenmix in a drinking straw ignited with a grain-of-wheat globe.
Adding metal powders might help with tough to light propellant, you could
even try a small amount of thermite composition. If you want an extended
pyrogen burn you could pack a tube with your mix and make a mini gerb or
rocket motor device and stuff that all the way up to the bulkhead and let
the main composition help light itself.

Post by Michael Newton
smeltsmoke,
I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying I should do a
Google search for igniter pyrogen compositions? I just tried it and
got zip. And, nobody has responded to this thread with a formula yet
either. I doubt if anyone ever will. They're too afraid of the
Gestap.. uhh.. BATFE.
Regards,
Michael Newton

Post by smeltsmoke
Google is faster and will yeild much more results to old posts

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.
Would standard 70/30 flash mixed with nitrocellulose lacquer as a
binder work?
Regards,
Michael Newton

Smeltsmoke

[Michael Newton]

Post by Alan Yates
Can't you just experiment for yourself?

Pure research? Sorry, there's no money in it. <g>

Besides, isn't that what this network community is for--to share
knowledge, experience, ideas, etc..? I gave up reinventing the wheel a
long while back.

Post by Alan Yates
It seems the basic idea is to have something that spits lots of sparks and
hot slag. IIRC I read somewhere that silicon or boron is often added for
that purpose.

Actually, with igniters for composite motors there are two basic
ideas;

(1) A primer pyrogen that will ignite with very little current. Let's
say about 1.0 amps from a 9 volt battery. And, so we don't have to
solder or wirewrap nichrome, let's make it a 'bridgeless' primer. That
means the compound must act as its own bridge wire. Which means it
needs a conductive metalic component. I believe the Firefox ELV
primer/pyrogen uses zirconium. Yes, I just checked and their web site
says, "Using zirconium and other exotic metals.."

(2) An 'overcoat' pyrogen, usually containing a mixture of metals
combined with an oxidizer and a binder, that is ignited by the primer
and provides "lots of sparks and hot slag." This is what actually
ignites the composite motor. The primer pyrogen alone just doesn't put
out enough BTUs to ignite a composite motor.

I am looking for an easy and cheap way to make both types of pyrogen.
Although I'd also like to see formula for non-conductive primer
pyrogens as well.

Regards,
Michael Newton

[Alan Yates]

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
Can't you just experiment for yourself?

Pure research? Sorry, there's no money in it. <g>
Besides, isn't that what this network community is for--to share
knowledge, experience, ideas, etc..? I gave up reinventing the wheel a
long while back.

Fair enough, but it seems everyone here is clueless about pyrogens or
holding back. :-) So you might be stuck with the old suck it and see process.

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
It seems the basic idea is to have something that spits lots of sparks and
hot slag. IIRC I read somewhere that silicon or boron is often added for
that purpose.

Actually, with igniters for composite motors there are two basic
ideas;
(1) A primer pyrogen that will ignite with very little current. Let's
say about 1.0 amps from a 9 volt battery. And, so we don't have to
solder or wirewrap nichrome, let's make it a 'bridgeless' primer. That
means the compound must act as its own bridge wire. Which means it
needs a conductive metalic component. I believe the Firefox ELV
primer/pyrogen uses zirconium. Yes, I just checked and their web site
says, "Using zirconium and other exotic metals.."
(2) An 'overcoat' pyrogen, usually containing a mixture of metals
combined with an oxidizer and a binder, that is ignited by the primer
and provides "lots of sparks and hot slag." This is what actually
ignites the composite motor. The primer pyrogen alone just doesn't put
out enough BTUs to ignite a composite motor.
I am looking for an easy and cheap way to make both types of pyrogen.
Although I'd also like to see formula for non-conductive primer
pyrogens as well.

Yeah it would be nice to find a simple recipe for a pyrogen paste you can
just dip your two wires into and not have to deal with a bridge wire. It
would be even better if you didn't need the overcoat, an all-in-one
composition - one less production step. In my experence bridgeless ignitors
don't fire well with just a 9 V battery, they need a capacitor discharge
unit (aka hacked flashgun) or more than 12 V to light in milliseconds.

That's why I've settled on the grain-of-wheat bulb as my ignitor, its a
bigger pain to make, but for larger motors I don't mind taking 5 minutes to
make an ignitor that will fire relibably. Of course it is bulky (the case
is a drinking straw) and only suitable for larger motors, but I'd gather
your composite motors aren't small?

I've seen a commercial composite motor ignitor that was a flat strip of two
Aluminium foils sandwitching a paper insulator. The end was zig-zaged and
coated in something that definately had metal flakes in it. It seemed to be
designed for sliding into moon-burning motor cores.

[Michael Newton]

Post by Alan Yates
That's why I've settled on the grain-of-wheat bulb as my ignitor,

How do you make a grain-of-wheat bulb ignitor? I did a google search
and only found references to "grain-of-wheat 24 volt 40 mA
subminiature incandescent bulbs." I know that photo flash bulbs have
been used for years to ignite black powder ejection charges in high
power rockets. However, I understand they have fallen out of favor
recently because they are too sensitive. They've been known to fire
prematurely from static electricity or even RF energy from CBs,
radios, and RC controllers.

Post by Alan Yates
In my experence bridgeless ignitors
don't fire well with just a 9 V battery, they need a capacitor discharge
unit (aka hacked flashgun) or more than 12 V to light in milliseconds.

Interesting. In the testing I've done with Firefox's ELV
primer/pyrogen every igniter I've tried has fired without any
noticeable delay using a 9v battery.

I've also bench tested my PML AccuFire staging timer with these
ignitors and, so far, they've all fired successfully. The AccuFire
timer is a small PC board that runs off a standard 9VDC alkaline
battery and provides up to 1.25A output current to its pyro channel
after a programmed delay.

[Alan Yates]

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
That's why I've settled on the grain-of-wheat bulb as my ignitor,

How do you make a grain-of-wheat bulb ignitor? I did a google search
and only found references to "grain-of-wheat 24 volt 40 mA
subminiature incandescent bulbs." I know that photo flash bulbs have
been used for years to ignite black powder ejection charges in high
power rockets. However, I understand they have fallen out of favor
recently because they are too sensitive. They've been known to fire
prematurely from static electricity or even RF energy from CBs,
radios, and RC controllers.

Grain-of-wheat bulbs are available in a range of voltages. The local
electronics store http://www.jaycar.com.au/ sells them in 1.5, 3, 6, 9, and
12 volt ratings, and has two sizes as well. I use the smallest 1.5 V 100 mA
version, which is 3 mm in diameter, 7 mm long and comes with 100 mm of wire
already attached and heat-shrunk to the bottom of the bulb. (I actually buy
them from their wholesale site http://www.electusdistribution.com.au/ for 23
cents AUD each, which is definately 'expensive' but not too bad.)

I simply grind off the top of the bulb with some sand paper and carefully
fill it will some meal by dunking it hole-down (gently) into a small jar of
meal until it is filled. I normally stick this entire assembly into a soda
straw and fill with meal or greenmix (or whatever), sealing the ends with
hot-melt glue. Just sealing the end of the filled bulb with a drop of
hot-melt works too, but only for sensitive compositions.

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
In my experence bridgeless ignitors
don't fire well with just a 9 V battery, they need a capacitor discharge
unit (aka hacked flashgun) or more than 12 V to light in milliseconds.

Interesting. In the testing I've done with Firefox's ELV
primer/pyrogen every igniter I've tried has fired without any
noticeable delay using a 9v battery.
I've also bench tested my PML AccuFire staging timer with these
ignitors and, so far, they've all fired successfully. The AccuFire
timer is a small PC board that runs off a standard 9VDC alkaline
battery and provides up to 1.25A output current to its pyro channel
after a programmed delay.

I am talking about my homebrew ones, it is probably that my composition and
technique just isn't all that refined yet. I use conductive lampblack, but
I am having trouble keeping the completed resistance below 50 Ohms. I'll
try metal powder mixtures eventually. I've also done extensive experiments
with coated commercial resistors. They work quite well, as long as you can
get them to heat up quick enough. The CD firing box definately does that,
the resistance element opens like a fuse in a shower of sparks. With just 9
V DC they can take up two seconds to fire.

[Michael Newton]

Post by Alan Yates
I am talking about my homebrew ones, it is probably that my composition and
technique just isn't all that refined yet. I use conductive lampblack, but
I am having trouble keeping the completed resistance below 50 Ohms.

Have you tried lengthening the exposed leads? That, along with the
correct gap, might reduce the resistance. If that doesn't fix it, I'd
also try adding a bit of -200 mesh zirconium powder to the mix, if you
can get any. According to Skylighter zirconium is currently
unshippable for some reason (an overreaction to 9-11 terrorist attack
is my guess).

What oxidizer are you using?

Post by Alan Yates
I'll try metal powder mixtures eventually.

I'd like to be able to reproduce Firefox's ELV primer/pyrogen. I think
it works great when it's mixed correctly and hasn't been diluted with
too much acetone.

Regards,
Michael Newton

[Alan Yates]

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
I am talking about my homebrew ones, it is probably that my composition and
technique just isn't all that refined yet. I use conductive lampblack, but
I am having trouble keeping the completed resistance below 50 Ohms.

Have you tried lengthening the exposed leads? That, along with the
correct gap, might reduce the resistance. If that doesn't fix it, I'd
also try adding a bit of -200 mesh zirconium powder to the mix, if you
can get any. According to Skylighter zirconium is currently
unshippable for some reason (an overreaction to 9-11 terrorist attack
is my guess).

I'll try the metals I have available (ie Copper and Aluminium) next batch.
Yes I've tried varying the length of the exposed leads, but they grow too
long. I think my 'conductive' lampblack isn't all that conductive, it reads
10s of kR if I just stick the multimeter probes into it a paste of it.
Might try some graphite powder as well.

You can probably get Zirconium powder off eBay, but you'd pay a premium. I
can't imagine why it would be a 'terrorist threat' item, its just an element
after all, it must have other uses, in sintered alloys for example?

Post by Michael Newton
What oxidizer are you using?

Potassium Nitrate, it is all I have currently. :-(

I'd make my own Perchlorate but I do not (yet) have the right testing
reagents to make sure I've purifed my product sufficiently. I am cautious
of having Chlorate left in significant quantities.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Post by Alan Yates
I'll try the metals I have available (ie Copper and Aluminium) next batch.
Yes I've tried varying the length of the exposed leads, but they grow too
long. I think my 'conductive' lampblack isn't all that conductive, it reads
10s of kR if I just stick the multimeter probes into it a paste of it.
Might try some graphite powder as well.

It'll remain in the 50K-1M per square range until it dries. As the solvent
evaporates, the particles nestle against each other, and complete a
lower-resistance path. That's also why conductive pyrogens contain so little
NC binder. Too much would form an occlusive barrier between particles.

Keep in mind, too, that a correctly-arranged conductive ignitor has an
aspect ratio of only about 1/100th of a square. The conductors are long
relative to the very narrow gap. If the dried pyrogen had a resistance of,
say, 2K per square, then the finished resistance would be on the order of 20
ohms.

LLoyd

[Joel Corwith]

Post by Michael Newton

Post by Alan Yates
Can't you just experiment for yourself?

Pure research? Sorry, there's no money in it. <g>
Besides, isn't that what this network community is for--to share
knowledge, experience, ideas, etc..? I gave up reinventing the wheel a
long while back.

Post by Alan Yates
It seems the basic idea is to have something that spits lots of sparks and
hot slag. IIRC I read somewhere that silicon or boron is often added for
that purpose.

Actually, with igniters for composite motors there are two basic
ideas;
(1) A primer pyrogen that will ignite with very little current. Let's
say about 1.0 amps from a 9 volt battery. And, so we don't have to
solder or wirewrap nichrome, let's make it a 'bridgeless' primer. That
means the compound must act as its own bridge wire. Which means it
needs a conductive metalic component. I believe the Firefox ELV
primer/pyrogen uses zirconium. Yes, I just checked and their web site
says, "Using zirconium and other exotic metals.."

Did you try a deja search on:
conductive formula zirconium group:rec.pyrotechnics
?

Post by Michael Newton
(2) An 'overcoat' pyrogen, usually containing a mixture of metals
combined with an oxidizer and a binder, that is ignited by the primer
and provides "lots of sparks and hot slag." This is what actually
ignites the composite motor. The primer pyrogen alone just doesn't put
out enough BTUs to ignite a composite motor.

or
pyrogen formula group:rec.pyrotechnics
or
pyrogen recipe group:rec.pyrotechnics

Post by Michael Newton
I am looking for an easy and cheap way to make both types of pyrogen.

Cheap? Easy? Firefox Extreme low voltage electric igniter primer -
conductive $14.00 3 oz/bottle plus shipping. LampBlack 1lb - $7.15. Then
there's Zirconium 1/2 lb - $23. You can make several hunderd igniters with
the 3 oz bottles. How much stuff you gonna make when you have to buy pound
quantities? Don't forget mix bottles and a good gram scale. You'll spend
$50-$100 in chemicals alone just to make that $14 bottle.

Easy AND cheap? Even if the 3oz bottles only made 100 igniters, and you
also dipped in another $8.50 bottle of hotter pyrogen, thats still only
$0.22 per igniter.

Joel. phx

Post by Michael Newton
Although I'd also like to see formula for non-conductive primer
pyrogens as well.
Regards,
Michael Newton

[Jeff]

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.

You might want to specify what you are igniting. It can make a
difference. Rocketry folks that need to light some of the more
difficult to light composite propellants would be using pyrogen that
throws sparks / slag.

Jeff

[Michael Newton]

Jeff,

They will be used to ignite composite propellant high power rocket motors.

Regards,
Michael Newton

Post by Jeff

Post by Michael Newton
Does anyone have a formula for an igniter pyrogen they would share
with me? Preferrably one that doesn't use any hard to get chemicals.

You might want to specify what you are igniting. It can make a
difference. Rocketry folks that need to light some of the more
difficult to light composite propellants would be using pyrogen that
throws sparks / slag.
Jeff

[Jeff]

Post by Michael Newton
They will be used to ignite composite propellant high power rocket motors.

Ah, then Mike Poulton's chlorate/Al/sulfur alone is probably not
enough, unless he was talking atomized Al. I have seen posts that
recommend simple Goex (powdered) and fine (100 to 200 mesh) fine
titanium in NC laquer. I have seen posts that push chlorate/charcoal
70/30 with 5% added dextrin in water. Not a whole lot of convincing
info out there in Google Groups, but spend some time & you should find
enough hints.

Jeff

[David Brown]

On Skylighter's web site in Bulletin #15 they give some info on making e
match's that may or not help depending on what chemicals you have.


Pyro Supplies Bulletin #15
http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=9#ematch

Post by Jeff

Post by Michael Newton
They will be used to ignite composite propellant high power rocket motors.

Ah, then Mike Poulton's chlorate/Al/sulfur alone is probably not
enough, unless he was talking atomized Al. I have seen posts that
recommend simple Goex (powdered) and fine (100 to 200 mesh) fine
titanium in NC laquer. I have seen posts that push chlorate/charcoal
70/30 with 5% added dextrin in water. Not a whole lot of convincing
info out there in Google Groups, but spend some time & you should find
enough hints.
Jeff

[David Brown]

Here is another place if you didn't like the first one.

With Google and the right search parameters you really can find most
anything.

These are links to a Amateur Rocket site. The first one is to the home page
and the second link is to step by step instructions on e match's. And if you
ask for some free NiCrome wire they will just give it to you. At least
that's what it says.

http://www.ssaerospace.com/index.php

http://www.ssaerospace.com/igniter_kit/index.html

Post by David Brown
On Skylighter's web site in Bulletin #15 they give some info on making e
match's that may or not help depending on what chemicals you have.
Pyro Supplies Bulletin #15
http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=9#ematch

Post by Jeff

Post by Michael Newton
They will be used to ignite composite propellant high power rocket

motors.

Post by Jeff
Ah, then Mike Poulton's chlorate/Al/sulfur alone is probably not
enough, unless he was talking atomized Al. I have seen posts that
recommend simple Goex (powdered) and fine (100 to 200 mesh) fine
titanium in NC laquer. I have seen posts that push chlorate/charcoal
70/30 with 5% added dextrin in water. Not a whole lot of convincing
info out there in Google Groups, but spend some time & you should find
enough hints.
Jeff

[Joel Corwith]

Post by David Brown
Here is another place if you didn't like the first one.
With Google and the right search parameters you really can find most
anything.
These are links to a Amateur Rocket site. The first one is to the home page
and the second link is to step by step instructions on e match's. And if you
ask for some free NiCrome wire they will just give it to you. At least
that's what it says.
http://www.ssaerospace.com/index.php
http://www.ssaerospace.com/igniter_kit/index.html

There were numerous complaints on rocketryonline about their service. I
suggest you check around.

Joel. phx