What's in a Piccolo Pete?

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate and Potassium
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!
Makes a nice cracker. But I'm a bit tired of big booms, ringing ears, holes
and bits of paper all over my yard.
I've been wanting to make some motar shells and I thought I'd start by
perfecting the stars first. I made a few nice ones by mixing this white
stuff with some flash power, three different types of sparkler material, and
some smokeless ball powder in a bit of water. It was the first time I ever
mixed powders.
I got a little nervous when some bubbles (very few) started appearing, but
nothing happened. I let them air dry because I was not about to stick them
in an oven.
Now that I'm still alive and whole, I'm just wondering how close I might
1. The thin, difficult-to-light type on a metal stick.
2. The powder types that have no binder.
3. The type that produce colors (I chose green and blue), are bound to a
wooden stick, and appear to have a tip on the end for starting.
Did I make some major toxins? Were the bubbles anything to worry about?
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I ground all
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white stuff because
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.
Final question... What part of the grocery store do I find dextrin or other
types of water soluable binders? The stars I made would probably not
withstand a burst. The only binder involved came from whatever was in the
white stuff and two of the sparklers.

Oh my! 'Nuff said.

Harry C.

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-07 06:13:41 UTC

Actually, the stars I made were pretty cool. Rather than simply tell me
that I shouldn't mix this stuff, it would be nice to know "why" because I
would like to learn about the various reactions. I made this particular
concoction because:

1. I wanted to ensure certain, quick, and complete ignition - white stuff

2. I wanted colored flame and sparks - sparklers

3. I wanted a steady and controllable burn - ball powder

Thank you for your input. Just a little late, though :-) While I was
waiting for an answer, I found some corn starch in my closet and threw a
couple of pinches in my next batch. Works great even without cooking!
These things will stand against a burst now. How long before the mold sets
in? ;-)

I'll try try your method of cooking the starch next time I get the
obsession.

I'm looking for a little more information of how I might hurt myself with
such specific mixes - such as chemical reactions and unstable powders.

Once again, thanks for your input.

Everybody gets tired of just bangs at some point. Anyway you can make
dextrin by baking corn starch on a cookie sheet until it is a golden
brown color. Make sure its just a thin layer and open the windows bc
it smells. Don't mess around mixing flash powder and whistle mix with
stuff like sparklers. Good charcoal stars are easy to make. They are
just a modified black powder with binder such as dextrin. You might
hurt yourself by experimenting like you did.

Ryan Park

2003-07-07 22:08:42 UTC

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become unstable when
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned are
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.

<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I ground all
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white stuff because
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a problem as raw
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.

Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts (which are
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous donors and
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing group). Most
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may undergo
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.

Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with anything short of
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to set them
off.

I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown composition.

-- Ryan

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-08 01:37:30 UTC

Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my! 'Nuff
said."

Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable. Without
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult to know
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in the
first place.

I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even pressure.

I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the MSDN on
Piccolo Petes?"

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become unstable when
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned are
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I ground all
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white stuff

because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a problem as raw
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts (which are
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous donors and
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing group). Most
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may undergo
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with anything short of
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to set them
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown composition.
-- Ryan

Don Thompson

2003-07-08 01:50:12 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my! 'Nuff
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult to know
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in the
first place.

But you still ground chemicals and added water without knowing just what
chemicals you were diddling with. And before you asked. Therefore the, "Oh
my! 'Nuff said.", comment fits your stupid self to a "T".
--
Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even pressure.
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the MSDN on
Piccolo Petes?"

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate and

Potassium

Post by Piccolo Pete
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become unstable

when

Post by Ryan Park
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned are
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I ground

all

Post by Piccolo Pete
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white stuff

because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a problem as raw
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts (which are
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous donors and
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing group). Most
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may undergo
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with anything

short

Post by Ryan Park
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to set them
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown composition.
-- Ryan

Harry Conover

2003-07-08 22:55:26 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my! 'Nuff
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult to

know

Post by Piccolo Pete
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in the
first place.

Exactly the point I was attempting to make with my rather terse comment.

Harry C.

Don Thompson

2003-07-09 02:46:04 UTC

Wow. You can still type. Too bad you don't know how to read. Ever hear the
old saw; " The Lord helps he who helps himself " ? Well it works just as
well if you substitute "knowledgeable pyrotecnical hobbyist" for " Lord ".
In fact you show the utmost disrespect for those who know what you want to
find out if you have not first done a stint reading what you can find on
google and a couple of hours in your local library. Matter of strict fact is
that anyone who posts the message you screamed on the scene with does not
DESERVE a good answer. And this, your latest missive, quite simply
reinforces that fact. You have not done even a modicum of your own
literature search. You simply demand that we answer your question without
regard to the fact that you have already shown yourself to be both ignorant
and a fool.
--
Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

Hmmm... Let's see... I come in here asking for safety help, and flame

gets

applied to my ego - when everyone knows the human ego is about the most
unstable mixture on the planet.
I did a very small amount at first. About a half timble full. They are

fingers, not yours.
Florida is about as humid as it gets. A Piccolo Pete's active ingredient

directly exposed to the environment. I was quite convinced that moisture
would not affect... wait a minute... I don't have to explain myself. I
came in here asking for safety
information and I'm getting popped for it. This is not an "alt."

newsgroup.

I asked for the composition of an extremely common firework so that I

might

safely move forward with experimentation. I have yet to receive a proper
answer.
Invention and discovery are based on risky experimentation. Some get

hurt -

some don't. Any one of you could get blown apart at your next show even
though you claim to be experts. This is obvious because of the number of
obituaries I see in this group for "experts".
I don't want pounds of chemicals around my house. That is why I only
experiment with the small amounts that come in legal fireworks.
The one and only time I've been injured by fireworks was about 32 years

ago

when I accidently held on to a black cat firecracker for .5 seconds too
long and temporarily lost the feeling in the tips of three fingers for 30
minutes. On the other hand, I've since been severely, and permanently,
injured by normal use of power tools and women.
Give it a break. People are going to do this anyway. If someone comes in
here asking for safety information, you shouldn't flame them. I'm only
making stars. Too bad I can't pack your useless comments into a shell and
shoot it into the sky. It would probably give a spectacular
multidimensional display of snobbery and hipocracy - colors that can only

seen by people who cherish respect.
BOOM!!!! Wow! oooooooh aaaaaaaah.... good thing none of the flames

hit

the ground.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my!

'Nuff

Post by Piccolo Pete
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult

Post by Piccolo Pete
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
first place.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even pressure.
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the

MSDN

Post by Piccolo Pete
Piccolo Petes?"

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate and

Potassium

Post by Piccolo Pete
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become

unstable

Post by Ryan Park
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned are
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I

ground

Post by Piccolo Pete
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white stuff

because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a problem

Post by Ryan Park
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts

(which

Post by Ryan Park
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous donors

and

Post by Ryan Park
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing group).

Most

Post by Ryan Park
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may

undergo

Post by Ryan Park
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with anything

short

Post by Ryan Park
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to set

them

Post by Ryan Park
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown composition.
-- Ryan

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-09 05:57:32 UTC

Um... I spent many hours looking on the net for the composition of a Piccolo
Pete before I posted here. My search included Google. I did so because I
know that some folks in this group are capable of being as unstable as the
chemicals they play with. I couldn't find any information on this
particular device. So I took a chance and asked here.

Might you suggest a site that I could explore to find an answer to my
question?

Your final comment is a bit interesting... If I weren't ignorant, I
wouldn't be asking this question. If I were a fool, I wouldn't even have
thought of asking this question in the first place. So... I'm just
ignorant. I'll accept that. That's why I asked the question.

If you are incapable of answering my question, then perhaps you are as
ignorant as I and would do best to sit back and wait for an informed
individual to respond.

Once again, this is not an "alt." newsgroup. It is not necessary to go
ballistic on me.

I'm not screaming or demanding an answer to my question. If it is certain
that nobody is willing to answer my question, then I will wander away
quietly. Your comments have done nothing more than add instability to this
thread - much as everyone else here is afraid of unstable chemicals.

Something tells me your head is about to explode. Please rap a pillow
around it so the fragments of your skull don't hurt anyone around you.

Post by Don Thompson
Wow. You can still type. Too bad you don't know how to read. Ever hear the
old saw; " The Lord helps he who helps himself " ? Well it works just as
well if you substitute "knowledgeable pyrotecnical hobbyist" for " Lord ".
In fact you show the utmost disrespect for those who know what you want to
find out if you have not first done a stint reading what you can find on

google and a couple of hours in your local library. Matter of strict fact is

Post by Don Thompson
that anyone who posts the message you screamed on the scene with does not
DESERVE a good answer. And this, your latest missive, quite simply
reinforces that fact. You have not done even a modicum of your own
literature search. You simply demand that we answer your question without
regard to the fact that you have already shown yourself to be both ignorant
and a fool.
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Hmmm... Let's see... I come in here asking for safety help, and flame

gets

applied to my ego - when everyone knows the human ego is about the most
unstable mixture on the planet.
I did a very small amount at first. About a half thimble full. They

are

Post by Don Thompson
my

fingers, not yours.
Florida is about as humid as it gets. A Piccolo Pete's active ingredient

directly exposed to the environment. I was quite convinced that moisture
would not affect... wait a minute... I don't have to explain myself.

came in here asking for safety
information and I'm getting popped for it. This is not an "alt."

newsgroup.

I asked for the composition of an extremely common firework so that I

might

safely move forward with experimentation. I have yet to receive a proper
answer.
Invention and discovery are based on risky experimentation. Some get

hurt -

ago

seen by people who cherish respect.
BOOM!!!! Wow! oooooooh aaaaaaaah.... good thing none of the flames

hit

the ground.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my!

'Nuff

Post by Piccolo Pete
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult

Post by Piccolo Pete
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
first place.

But you still ground chemicals and added water without knowing just

what

Post by Piccolo Pete
chemicals you were diddling with. And before you asked. Therefore the,

"Oh

Post by Piccolo Pete
my! 'Nuff said.", comment fits your stupid self to a "T".
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even pressure.
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the

MSDN

Post by Piccolo Pete
Piccolo Petes?"

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate and

Potassium

Post by Piccolo Pete
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become

unstable

Post by Ryan Park
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned are
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I

ground

Post by Piccolo Pete
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white

stuff

Post by Ryan Park
because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a problem

Post by Ryan Park
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts

(which

Post by Ryan Park
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous donors

and

Post by Ryan Park
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing group).

Most

Post by Ryan Park
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may

undergo

Post by Ryan Park
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with anything

short

Post by Ryan Park
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to set

them

Post by Ryan Park
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown composition.
-- Ryan

Don Thompson

2003-07-09 13:15:27 UTC

Piccolo Pete is a brand name of a pyrotechnic whistle. Look up pyrotechnic
whistles, whistle mix, whistle composition, etc.

How much value is placed on something you acquire for nothing? How much
value is placed on something you searched long and hard for? How much other
knowledge is gained and retained in your search for some specific item of
interest?

Be truthful. The way you answer will reveal a hell of a lot about whether
you deserve the knowledge you ask for.

By the way. I am quite capable of answering your question simply off the
top of my head. But as the Old Master in all the Karate movies says, " You
must first learn the small things so that the larger things can be
understood." In other words, you come here telling us all that you have
already endangered yourself and everything around you by diddling with
chemicals you know nothing about, in ways that you don't know are safe, but
you want to know AFTER THE FACT if you might have killed yourself, someone
else, or burned down the town. Which is the brand of a fool. Not to be
entrusted lightly with dangerous information. Then you have the temerity to
justify your idiocy by saying "Invention and discovery are based on risky
experimentation", when in fact experimentation has been done and formula are
in the literature. Only a fool thinks he needs to reinvent the wheel every
time he wants to move a load of bullshit. So you see it is YOU who have a
need to prove you are deserving, not we whose knowledge you demand for free
who need to prove a damn thing to you. Get to proving your worth. You might
be surprised.
--
Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
Um... I spent many hours looking on the net for the composition of a Piccolo
Pete before I posted here. My search included Google. I did so because I
know that some folks in this group are capable of being as unstable as the
chemicals they play with. I couldn't find any information on this
particular device. So I took a chance and asked here.
Might you suggest a site that I could explore to find an answer to my
question?
Your final comment is a bit interesting... If I weren't ignorant, I
wouldn't be asking this question. If I were a fool, I wouldn't even have
thought of asking this question in the first place. So... I'm just
ignorant. I'll accept that. That's why I asked the question.
If you are incapable of answering my question, then perhaps you are as
ignorant as I and would do best to sit back and wait for an informed
individual to respond.
Once again, this is not an "alt." newsgroup. It is not necessary to go
ballistic on me.
I'm not screaming or demanding an answer to my question. If it is certain
that nobody is willing to answer my question, then I will wander away
quietly. Your comments have done nothing more than add instability to this
thread - much as everyone else here is afraid of unstable chemicals.
Something tells me your head is about to explode. Please rap a pillow
around it so the fragments of your skull don't hurt anyone around you.

google and a couple of hours in your local library. Matter of strict fact is

ignorant

Post by Don Thompson
and a fool.
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Hmmm... Let's see... I come in here asking for safety help, and flame

gets

applied to my ego - when everyone knows the human ego is about the most
unstable mixture on the planet.
I did a very small amount at first. About a half thimble full. They

are

Post by Don Thompson
my

fingers, not yours.
Florida is about as humid as it gets. A Piccolo Pete's active

ingredient

Post by Don Thompson
is

directly exposed to the environment. I was quite convinced that

moisture

would not affect... wait a minute... I don't have to explain myself.

came in here asking for safety
information and I'm getting popped for it. This is not an "alt."

newsgroup.

I asked for the composition of an extremely common firework so that I

might

safely move forward with experimentation. I have yet to receive a

proper

answer.
Invention and discovery are based on risky experimentation. Some get

hurt -

some don't. Any one of you could get blown apart at your next show even
though you claim to be experts. This is obvious because of the number

obituaries I see in this group for "experts".
I don't want pounds of chemicals around my house. That is why I only
experiment with the small amounts that come in legal fireworks.
The one and only time I've been injured by fireworks was about 32 years

ago

when I accidently held on to a black cat firecracker for .5 seconds too
long and temporarily lost the feeling in the tips of three fingers for

minutes. On the other hand, I've since been severely, and

permanently,

injured by normal use of power tools and women.
Give it a break. People are going to do this anyway. If someone

comes

here asking for safety information, you shouldn't flame them. I'm only
making stars. Too bad I can't pack your useless comments into a shell

and

shoot it into the sky. It would probably give a spectacular
multidimensional display of snobbery and hipocracy - colors that can

only

Post by Don Thompson
be

seen by people who cherish respect.
BOOM!!!! Wow! oooooooh aaaaaaaah.... good thing none of the flames

hit

the ground.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my!

'Nuff

Post by Piccolo Pete
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult

Post by Piccolo Pete
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the

composition

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
first place.

But you still ground chemicals and added water without knowing just

what

Post by Piccolo Pete
chemicals you were diddling with. And before you asked. Therefore the,

"Oh

Post by Piccolo Pete
my! 'Nuff said.", comment fits your stupid self to a "T".
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even

pressure.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the

MSDN

Post by Piccolo Pete
Piccolo Petes?"

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate and

Potassium

Post by Piccolo Pete
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become

unstable

Post by Ryan Park
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned

are

Post by Ryan Park
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I

ground

Post by Piccolo Pete
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white

stuff

Post by Ryan Park
because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a

problem

Post by Don Thompson
as

Post by Ryan Park
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts

(which

Post by Ryan Park
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous

donors

and

Post by Ryan Park
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing

group).

Most

Post by Ryan Park
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may

undergo

Post by Ryan Park
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with

anything

Post by Piccolo Pete
short

Post by Ryan Park
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to

set

them

Post by Ryan Park
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown

composition.

Post by Ryan Park
-- Ryan

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-15 00:32:09 UTC

Post by Don Thompson
Piccolo Pete is a brand name of a pyrotechnic whistle. Look up pyrotechnic
whistles, whistle mix, whistle composition, etc.
How much value is placed on something you acquire for nothing? How much
value is placed on something you searched long and hard for? How much other
knowledge is gained and retained in your search for some specific item of
interest?

Potassium benzoate and Potassium Perchlorate are what I found before I even
posted. That is what I figured it was. These two chemicals appear to be
relatively safe to mix with the items I mentioned. There was no warning
about them on any of the sites, but there WERE warnings about other
chemicals - which is why I avoid using more complex chemicals that can be
found in other fountains.

Post by Don Thompson
Be truthful. The way you answer will reveal a hell of a lot about whether
you deserve the knowledge you ask for.
By the way. I am quite capable of answering your question simply off the
top of my head. But as the Old Master in all the Karate movies says, " You
must first learn the small things so that the larger things can be
understood." In other words, you come here telling us all that you have
already endangered yourself and everything around you by diddling with
chemicals you know nothing about, in ways that you don't know are safe, but
you want to know AFTER THE FACT if you might have killed yourself, someone
else, or burned down the town.

This really is getting a bit tedious. I already told you I only made very
small quantities and from what I got from my web search, felt them to be
fairly safe. It wasn't until I noticed a few bubbles that I became a bit
concerned. I now know which component caused those bubbles and now know it
is nothing to be concerned about.

Post by Don Thompson
Which is the brand of a fool. Not to be
entrusted lightly with dangerous information. Then you have the temerity to
justify your idiocy by saying "Invention and discovery are based on risky
experimentation", when in fact experimentation has been done and formula are
in the literature. Only a fool thinks he needs to reinvent the wheel every
time he wants to move a load of bullshit. So you see it is YOU who have a
need to prove you are deserving, not we whose knowledge you demand for free
who need to prove a damn thing to you. Get to proving your worth. You might
be surprised.

Is this where I'm supposed to grovel at your feet and beg forgiveness?

Post by Don Thompson
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
Um... I spent many hours looking on the net for the composition of a

Piccolo

Post by Piccolo Pete
Pete before I posted here. My search included Google. I did so because I
know that some folks in this group are capable of being as unstable as the
chemicals they play with. I couldn't find any information on this
particular device. So I took a chance and asked here.
Might you suggest a site that I could explore to find an answer to my
question?
Your final comment is a bit interesting... If I weren't ignorant, I
wouldn't be asking this question. If I were a fool, I wouldn't even have
thought of asking this question in the first place. So... I'm just
ignorant. I'll accept that. That's why I asked the question.
If you are incapable of answering my question, then perhaps you are as
ignorant as I and would do best to sit back and wait for an informed
individual to respond.
Once again, this is not an "alt." newsgroup. It is not necessary to go
ballistic on me.
I'm not screaming or demanding an answer to my question. If it is certain
that nobody is willing to answer my question, then I will wander away
quietly. Your comments have done nothing more than add instability to

this

Post by Piccolo Pete
thread - much as everyone else here is afraid of unstable chemicals.
Something tells me your head is about to explode. Please rap a pillow
around it so the fragments of your skull don't hurt anyone around you.

Post by Don Thompson
Wow. You can still type. Too bad you don't know how to read. Ever hear

the

Post by Don Thompson
old saw; " The Lord helps he who helps himself " ? Well it works just as
well if you substitute "knowledgeable pyrotecnical hobbyist" for "

Lord

Post by Don Thompson
".

Post by Don Thompson
In fact you show the utmost disrespect for those who know what you

want

Post by Don Thompson
to

Post by Don Thompson
find out if you have not first done a stint reading what you can find on

google and a couple of hours in your local library. Matter of strict

fact

Post by Don Thompson
is

Post by Don Thompson
that anyone who posts the message you screamed on the scene with does

not

Post by Don Thompson
DESERVE a good answer. And this, your latest missive, quite simply
reinforces that fact. You have not done even a modicum of your own
literature search. You simply demand that we answer your question

without

Post by Don Thompson
regard to the fact that you have already shown yourself to be both

ignorant

Post by Don Thompson
and a fool.
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Hmmm... Let's see... I come in here asking for safety help, and flame

gets

applied to my ego - when everyone knows the human ego is about the

most

unstable mixture on the planet.
I did a very small amount at first. About a half thimble full.

They

Post by Don Thompson
my

fingers, not yours.
Florida is about as humid as it gets. A Piccolo Pete's active

ingredient

Post by Don Thompson
is

directly exposed to the environment. I was quite convinced that

moisture

would not affect... wait a minute... I don't have to explain myself.

came in here asking for safety
information and I'm getting popped for it. This is not an "alt."

newsgroup.

I asked for the composition of an extremely common firework so that I

might

safely move forward with experimentation. I have yet to receive a

proper

answer.
Invention and discovery are based on risky experimentation. Some get

hurt -

some don't. Any one of you could get blown apart at your next show

even

though you claim to be experts. This is obvious because of the number

years

Post by Don Thompson
ago

when I accidently held on to a black cat firecracker for .5 seconds

too

long and temporarily lost the feeling in the tips of three fingers for

minutes. On the other hand, I've since been severely, and

permanently,

injured by normal use of power tools and women.
Give it a break. People are going to do this anyway. If someone

comes

here asking for safety information, you shouldn't flame them. I'm

only

making stars. Too bad I can't pack your useless comments into a shell

and

shoot it into the sky. It would probably give a spectacular
multidimensional display of snobbery and hipocracy - colors that can

only

Post by Don Thompson
be

seen by people who cherish respect.
BOOM!!!! Wow! oooooooh aaaaaaaah.... good thing none of the

flames

Post by Don Thompson
hit

the ground.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my!

'Nuff

Post by Piccolo Pete
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit

difficult

Post by Don Thompson
to

Post by Piccolo Pete
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the

composition

the

Post by Piccolo Pete
first place.

But you still ground chemicals and added water without knowing just

what

Post by Piccolo Pete
chemicals you were diddling with. And before you asked. Therefore

the,

Post by Don Thompson
"Oh

Post by Piccolo Pete
my! 'Nuff said.", comment fits your stupid self to a "T".
--
Don Thompson
Ex ROMAD

Post by Piccolo Pete
I would never use a hammer on this stuff. Always slow, even

pressure.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find

the

MSDN

Post by Piccolo Pete
Piccolo Petes?"

Post by Piccolo Pete
I decided to take a look at the inside of a Piccolo Pete.
Its just white stuff... but a lot of it. Potassium benzoate

and

Post by Piccolo Pete
Potassium

Post by Piccolo Pete
Perchlorate perhaps?
It is incredibly fast burning and quite violent!

You do know that some compositions are hygroscopic, and become

unstable

Post by Ryan Park
wet, right? As far as I know, neither of the compunds mentioned

are

Post by Ryan Park
hazardous when wet, but I can and may be wrong.
<snip>

Post by Piccolo Pete
Also, how about "shock" to these items? I made certain that I

ground

Post by Piccolo Pete
the materials seperately, but I was concerned about the white

stuff

Post by Ryan Park
because

Post by Piccolo Pete
I had to use quite a bit of pressure to break it up.

Shock is generally considered bad. Pressure usually isn't a

problem

Post by Don Thompson
as

Post by Ryan Park
crystals are ground into a powder using slow, even pressure.
Perchlorates are part of a group known as amminemetal oxosalts

(which

Post by Ryan Park
metal compounds with coordinated ammonia or other nitrogenous

donors

and

Post by Ryan Park
ionic perchlorate, nitrate, permanganate or other oxidizing

group).

Most

Post by Ryan Park
metal, non-metal and amine perchlorates can be detonated and may

undergo

Post by Ryan Park
violent reaction when struck with sufficient force.
Force varies, of course. Some mixtures won't detonate with

anything

Post by Piccolo Pete
short

Post by Ryan Park
base charge, but some require only the scraping of a spatula to

set

them

Post by Ryan Park
off.
I would exercise a wee bit of caution in any unknown

composition.

Post by Ryan Park
-- Ryan

Old Dog

2003-07-08 17:25:08 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-09 04:34:54 UTC

Thank you for your comments and warnings.

I've avoided multicolored fountains and other exotic chemical formulations
for this reason. It appears that I am still within relative safety limits.

The whistle formula interests me quite a bit. I wish somebody could tell me
what it is so I could avoid an unhappy event.

I agree that I am lucky that I did not have a problem during my
experimentations. Please understand that I took safety precautions as I
wandered into unknown territory. Considering the safety precautions I took,
it is doubtfull that even a surprise would have hurt me.

I respect the whistle mix. What is it?

I am suspecting that whistle mix contains perclorate. Are you saying that
mixing it with a sulfur compound could make it go off unexpectedly? Even
without a flame? It would be nice to know the answer to this question.

How do they ship Piccolo Petes without a complete MSDN?

Post by Old Dog

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thanks for the information. It's much more helpfull than "Oh my! 'Nuff
said."
Yes, I am aware that moisture can make certain chemicals unstable.

Without

Post by Old Dog

Post by Piccolo Pete
knowing what chemical I am working with, it makes it a bit difficult to know
if it is sensitive to moisture. That's why I asked the composition in the
first place.

You really shouldn't be mixing fireworks chemicals when you don't know how they
will react with each other, much less when you don't even know what they are.
There ARE a number of chemicals routinely used that are relatively safe in
proper combinations but which become extremely sensitive and far more unstable
when mixed together. For example, sulfur is a common component of fireworks
based on black powder, and is naturally present in everything from bottle
rockets to the lift and burst charges on very large aerial shells. BP is very
low on the scale of sensitivity to impact and even friction, considered
*relatively* safe to handle. And perchlorates are used for many different
effects, especially modern colors with resin fuels, and again in this form are
considered relatively safe to handle. But mix the two together and you get
something that can be far more sensitive than either of the original compounds.
And you are starting out with a whistle mix, which as ALREADY very sensitive.
I'd say you are somewhat lucky you still have 10 fingers and two eyes that still
work.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I guess my origional question should have been "Where can I find the MSDN on
Piccolo Petes?"

The MSDN's I've seen were for specific chemicals, not combinations, and
certainly not generic names - so you would still need to know what those
chemicals are.
-Rich

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-09 07:23:04 UTC

Thank you very much, Mike. Yours is an excellent response.

The chemical makeup appears to be what I suspected.

I certainly agree that it should be considered an extremely dangerous
composition to work with as it seems to oxidize at many times the rate of
the highest grade flash powder - even to the point of not producing a
visible flamel

Why would mixing it with a sulfer compound increase its sensitivity to heat,
shock, and friction - but reduce its violent oxidation rate?

My experience with this mixture shows me that it ignites immediately, but
may take a moment longer when mixed with flash - being the reason that I'm
interested in using it. It seems to be the most reliable fuel in that it
ensures complete burning of even the most difficult compounds mixed with it.

No fireworks are actually stable... My biggest concern is that I add some
flash or sparkler substance to it and it suddenly reacts.

I have no intention of storing this compound external to the packaged
whistles in which it was purchase.

Thank you very much for your input.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I respect the whistle mix. What is it?

The most common is 70% KClO4 and 30% Na benzoate. Chlorate can be used
instead, and potassium benzoate or various salicylates are also possible
fuels. It is considered an extremely dangerous composition to work with,
on par with flash powders. When not pressed very hard, whistle mix burns
explosively fast. A few tens of grams can explode unconfined. It is
fairly soft and squishy, but it is definitely conidered shock and friction
sensitive -- grinding of any kind is a Very Bad Idea. Storing powdered
whistle mix (i.e. not pressed in a finished product) is an Equally Bad
Idea.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I am suspecting that whistle mix contains perclorate. Are you saying
that mixing it with a sulfur compound could make it go off
unexpectedly? Even without a flame? It would be nice to know the
answer to this question.

It would greatly increase sensitivity to shock, friction, and heat. It
would also probably prevent it from whistling, and would not really

enhance

it's effect in any discernable way.

Post by Piccolo Pete
How do they ship Piccolo Petes without a complete MSDN?

They're not for industrial use, and the primary hazard is fire or

explosion

-- hence the 1.4g classification.
--
Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies
Live free or die! http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/
Unless the government has a really excellent reason, anyone should be
allowed to possess, own, purchase, store, use, publish, say, or do
anything that does not cause demonstrable harm to another person without
that person's consent. "To fight terrorism" in the vague sense is not
even close to sufficient reason.

DavidThePyro

2003-07-09 15:30:14 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Why would mixing it with a sulfer compound increase its sensitivity to heat,
shock, and friction - but reduce its violent oxidation rate?

I thought that sulfur in a chlorate composition isn't good because a
small percentage of it could turn into sulfuric acid, or that a small
bit of the sulfur is acidic when it gets to you for whatever reason,
which is known to sensitize greatly or even ignite chlorate mixtures.

Don Thompson

2003-07-09 15:55:19 UTC

Post by DavidThePyro

Post by Piccolo Pete
Why would mixing it with a sulfer compound increase its sensitivity to heat,
shock, and friction - but reduce its violent oxidation rate?

To a certain extent you are correct. For the most part, in this day of
quite pure chemicals available to the common man though, you are not quite
so correct. The preferred sulfur used for pyrotechnic purposes is,
generally, washed sulfur without those tendencies to be acidic or easily
converted to acid. So the danger associated with its use are not nearly so
great. In many compositions sulfur's purpose is to -lower- the ignition
temperature and even to lower the flame temperature of the finished product.
But sulfur is "tricky" in that it is capable of more than a single burn
mode. The way it behaves depends in major part on other constituents of the
formula. Sulfur's properties as sensitizer are not to be taken lightly
though, only that the problem of "spontaneous" ignition/explosion is
lessened by the use of properly processed stock chemicals. The above
mentioned explains the sensitivity increase to heat. What is not generally
understood by a lot of hobby folks is that both shock and friction are just
different ways of "heating" a compound toward its ignition temperature. If a
compound reaches that temperature in just one localized hotspot the whole of
the compound/mixture will react. So the addition of a critical temperature
lowering component such as sulfur causes, in some instances, a dangerous
sensitivity to the finished product.

--
Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

Mike Poulton

2003-07-09 19:52:04 UTC

Post by Piccolo Pete
Thank you very much, Mike. Yours is an excellent response.
The chemical makeup appears to be what I suspected.
I certainly agree that it should be considered an extremely dangerous
composition to work with as it seems to oxidize at many times the rate
of the highest grade flash powder - even to the point of not producing
a visible flamel

Good flash is many times faster than whistle mix. However, whistle
seems to ignite more easily (lower activation energy and specific heat).
Whistle definitely produces flame. If it's made with sodium benzoate,
it makes a large, bright yellow flame. Potassium benzoate is dimmer,
but the flame volume is just as large.

Post by Piccolo Pete
Why would mixing it with a sulfer compound increase its sensitivity to
heat, shock, and friction - but reduce its violent oxidation rate?

Sensitivity and burn rate are separate things. Many very sensitive
compositions (match heads, for example) burn quite slowly. Sulfur melts
and starts to react at a lower temperature than most other fuels, and
therefore tends to increase ignition sensitivity of most compositions to
which it is added. However, the low melting point and high heat of
vaporization (or destruction) results in slow reaction rates.

Post by Piccolo Pete
My experience with this mixture shows me that it ignites immediately,
but may take a moment longer when mixed with flash - being the reason
that I'm interested in using it. It seems to be the most reliable
fuel in that it ensures complete burning of even the most difficult
compounds mixed with it.

It's not a fuel, it's a pyrotechnic composition. It has an essentially
neutral oxygen balance -- when it burns, it neither consumes nor
produces oxygen.

Post by Piccolo Pete
No fireworks are actually stable... My biggest concern is that I add
some flash or sparkler substance to it and it suddenly reacts.

It's not likely to suddenly react for no reason but you may greatly
increase its sensitivity to heat, impact, or friction.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I have no intention of storing this compound external to the packaged
whistles in which it was purchase.

Good thinking.
--
Mike Poulton
MTP Technologies

Live free or die! http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

Unless the government has a really excellent reason, anyone should be
allowed to possess, own, purchase, store, use, publish, say, or do
anything that does not cause demonstrable harm to another person without
that person's consent. "To fight terrorism" in the vague sense is not
even close to sufficient reason.

Joe 123

2003-07-10 16:17:11 UTC

Its a federal law that MSDS s be provided upon request to any consumer.
Having written several of them over the years I have been asked by
manufacturers to not list certain items but unless you get some kind of
exemption you have to. Another little trick used is to list uncommon names
that only a very well informed person would know. Basically its your right
to know.

I dont know anything about the fireworks industry and Im sure they dont
provide msds s for any of their items. Maybe they are exempt? They would
have to spend millions on writting them and in result give all their trade
secrets away. Sounds like a potential law suit. What happens if a damaged
cake released some powder and a child got some on their hands and then
sucked on finger. Barium nitrate comes to mind. Lead salts, chromate etc.
Oops I hope i didnt give anyone any ideas and then they go and create
another reason for the feds to outlaw fireworks.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I respect the whistle mix. What is it?

Therein lies the problem - unless you can find a manufacturer of the item

someone who has the ability to analyze the components, you are guessing.

There

are quite a few whistle mixutres, and while it's possible to rule some out
(like, I'm pretty sure it's not a potassium picrate formula) there are

modern

formulas that combine potassium perchlorate with salcylates, benzoates or
terephthalates that could all qualify.

Post by Piccolo Pete
I am suspecting that whistle mix contains perclorate. Are you saying that
mixing it with a sulfur compound could make it go off unexpectedly?

Even

Post by Piccolo Pete
without a flame? It would be nice to know the answer to this question.

Mixing sulfur with pechlorate can cause mixtures of compostions containing

both

to be far more sensitive than the original compositions. E.g.: you can

ball mill

the components of black powder (potassium nitrate, charcoal & sulfur) but

know of no one who would recommend the same process for Shimizu's KP

burst,

which is virtually the same formula using potassium perchlorate instead of

the

nitrate. And addition of sulfur to a simple flash mixture is known to

greatly

increase the sensitivity to a number of initiating stimuli without an

equivalent

increase in performance.

Post by Piccolo Pete
How do they ship Piccolo Petes without a complete MSDN?

I think you mean "MSDS". Why in the world would you expect them to? You

don't

see complete MSDS warnings on firecrackers, bottle rockets, or fountains

(even

the green ones that contain barium) - or, for that matter, on a zillion
household items that can be dangerous if they are used in a manner other

than

that intended by the manufacturer. I suspect MSDS postings are required

for

materials that will be handled in the raw state, not in finished products.

other words, Piccolo Pete's are sold with the expectation that they will

be shot

"as is", not taken apart and the contents mixed with other hazardous

materials.

-Rich

KN03

2003-07-11 02:45:53 UTC

The one and only time I've been injured by fireworks was about 32 years ago
when I accidently held on to a black cat firecracker for .5 seconds too
long and temporarily lost the feeling in the tips of three fingers for 30
minutes.

That must have been one of he pre-1976 firecrackers with 130 mg of powder. The
current Black Cats contain only 50 mg and are about the equivalent of the Lady
Fingers of former days. When I was about 12, my grandfather demonstrated
holding a lady finger in his hand while it went off, and wasn't hurt at all. I
tried this myself later, and and felt a little sting, but nothing more. I
suppose that is why CPSC restricted all firecrackers to 50 mg. It's very
difficult to hurt yourself with one.

-----

Anonymous

2003-07-11 03:37:38 UTC

Post by KN03
That must have been one of he pre-1976 firecrackers with 130 mg of powder. The
current Black Cats contain only 50 mg and are about the equivalent of the Lady
Fingers of former days. When I was about 12, my grandfather demonstrated
holding a lady finger in his hand while it went off, and wasn't hurt at all.

Man, I haven't seen a lady finger sence I was a kid (longer ago than
I care to admit!). Do they even make those anymore? Seems ashame if
they don't; they seemed like the safest of the "blows up" fireworks.

Anonymous

2003-07-11 18:35:53 UTC

Post by Anonymous
Man, I haven't seen a lady finger sence I was a kid (longer ago than
I care to admit!). Do they even make those anymore? Seems ashame if
they don't; they seemed like the safest of the "blows up" fireworks.

Yes, they are still made. But you have to go to an Indian reservation to find
them, at least in my area.

I'm surprised they aren't considered "novelty fireworks" and legal
everywhere: they seem to have about the same amount of charge as
a party popper.

Piccolo Pete

2003-07-15 00:42:46 UTC